Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
09-13-2004, 02:24 AM | #1 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
|
LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 01 - Many Meetings
We now begin our discussion of Book 2! Thanks to all those who have stuck with us and contributed so far.
This chapter is the account of one single day, told completely from Frodo’s point of view. It is his first conscious day in Rivendell, the awakening after his near-tragedy and the eucatastrophe which he did not remember experiencing. It begins with the reunion with Gandalf, though Frodo (and we) are not yet told why he failed to meet him earlier. Gandalf’s narrative fills in the empty spaces in the story, but more than that – he praises Frodo’s strength to withstand the influence of evil so far. Interestingly, he calls the experience in the Barrow the most dangerous moment of all. The possible reasons for that will provide us with interesting discussion material! (…in this most dangerous place… ) The dialogue, which consists mostly of Frodo’s questions and Gandalf’s answers, takes up the first pages of the chapter. Then come more of the meetings of which the chapter title speaks – reunions with Frodo’s friends, and later on, with Bilbo - yes, and with Glorfindel too; and acquaintance with new friends in Rivendell. Elrond is introduced, as is Arwen; Glóin is an old friend to those who have previously read The Hobbit, though known only by hearsay to Frodo; and Lindir is named as one of the many Elves who live at Rivendell. (His comment is one of my favorite lines in this chapter: “To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different, or to shepherds.” ) We get to know Aragorn from his kingly side, and another of his many names is revealed. Two poems give their special flavour to this chapter: Bilbo’s “Ëarendil was a mariner” and the Elves’ “A Elbereth Gilthoniel”. No translation from the original Sindarin is offered here for the latter (a daring authorial decision, but one that adds to the verisimilitude of the story!), though Bilbo comments that it is a song to Elbereth. However, Tolkien provided one along with explanations when the poem was set to music by Donald Swann in The Road Goes Ever On. Here it is: Quote:
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
|
09-13-2004, 06:57 AM | #2 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
We know we are no longer in ‘our’ world ‘Time doesn’t pass, in Rivendell, it just ‘is’, its difficult to even stay awake - one is constantly drifting into dreams. Frodo has finally passed over the ‘River’, which he had dreamed of doing, but he will never fully be able to pass back. The others will, like Thomas, returning from the OtherWorld with the gift of prophecy (‘The Tongue that Cannot Lie’) but Frodo won’t ever be able to reintegrate fully into this world - why? Perhaps because he became too bound to the ring, the ultimate source of OtherWorldly power & magic. Ironically, the more he integrates himself into the OtherWorld, the more he severs his links with the world of the iving. On their return the others feel like they’re waking up from a long dream, but Frodo feels like he is falling asleep. In the end the living world will become for Frodo what the OtherWorld is for his fellow hobbits - a place of dream, unreal, & he will always feel out of place, yearning for the place he has come to belong in. |
||||
09-13-2004, 08:24 PM | #3 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
|
After the excitement of the previous two chapters, Book II begins with a needed respite. Like chapter 1 of Book I, there is no real danger in this chapter, and the plot is not very much advanced. What does come across very strongly here is milieu - the feeling of Rivendell (that is, the feeling of Faerie) is perfectly captured. Book I began with a chapter that offered a vivid impression of Hobbiton; the rest of that book amounted to a journey away from the mundane and toward Faerie. As others have noted in previous chapter discussions, each time Frodo crosses a river he moves farther into the "otherworld". Now he has fully arrived, and a chapter offereing a vivid impression of Rivendell completes the journey.
This chapter also contains a rather impressive poem, Bilbo's "Earendil was a Mariner". I never cease to be impressed with the scheme of the poem, rhymes on every second line and assonance between the end of the off-lines and the second foot of the rhyming lines. Tolkien wrote that he was only able to write in this meter once and never again - but the "Earendil" poem is actually a heavy revision of his older poem "Errantry"; so he had sufficient command of its form at least for that. Interestingly, the version found in LotR was not the one that was meant to be. Tolkien had revised the poem further, but apparently could not find that revision at the time of publication and was forced to use this one. The "correct" version can be found in HoMe VII. |
09-13-2004, 08:55 PM | #4 | ||
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
|
Ah, True Thomas. A great guy and a great poem.
A very interesting post regarding the significance of the green clothing, davem, and the points you make are quite valid. The green is symbolic of the "Otherworld," as you say, and of how Frodo is being permanently drawn into this world. But I would not exactly also take a view of green being symbolic of life or rebirth. Here he is entering a world of calm and peace amid the dangers outside of Rivendell, and is regaining his health. He is not the same due to his experiences with the Ringwraiths, and he never will be, but he is still on the road to recovery. The color green could offer protection, since, as Gandalf says, Rivendell is safe Quote:
One of the parts I find most interesting in this chapter is the part when Bilbo asks to see the Ring, especially the following passage: Quote:
As a final thought: has anyone else noticed the similarities between the Hall of Fire in this chapter and the Tale-Fire of HoME I? |
||
09-14-2004, 01:44 AM | #5 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
To what extent is Frodo's time in Rivendell similar to Niggle's in the workhouse? Both periods take place in a post 'death' state, & both result in the hero ultimately leaving & going beyond the limits of the physical world (the 'Mountains' or the 'Sea'). Rivendell would work for me in that role - the place of preparation for the task ahead, the creation of Niggle's Parish,or the destruction of the Ring - though of course in a sense the whole of Frodo's journey is his 'workhouse'.
On Aiwendil's point about the Earendel verse in LotR not being the final version (it misses out a verse on the attack by the Sons of Feanor on the Havens of Sirion, among other things) : Quote:
Quote:
|
||
09-14-2004, 03:40 AM | #6 |
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
|
Aiwendil, I too noticed the similarity of the two poems "Ëarendil was a mariner" and "Errantry", which also has a mariner as its main protagonist. Since I didn't know which one was written first, I wondered if "Errantry" was perhaps his own parody, but your comment answers that question. Thanks! I may come back with a closer look at comparing the two if I have time this week.
__________________
'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
09-14-2004, 04:55 AM | #7 | |||
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
|
Hmmm…I appear to have a slightly different view of this chapter than some. Yes, I see that this chapter is one of the refuges in the refuge-danger cycle of the narrative, but I don’t see it as a pause in the action, nor as a moment in which Frodo makes any grand kind of transition between starkly opposed realms (life/death, mundane/faerie). What I thin is happening here is that Frodo is continuing his journey toward a fuller awareness of the world around him – of both the light and dark.
The chapter is full of moments in which the nature of things is revealed. The brilliance of the chapter is that nothing ‘new’ is really learned (that is for the masterpiece ‘Council of Elrond’ coming next week *pant pant*); instead, we & Frodo learn more about things we are already familiar with. It is, fittingly, Gandalf who kicks off the chapter’s ambivalent exploration of reality with his mysterious return, and equally mysterious refusal to explain why. We learn from him that: Quote:
But the light is revealed, as is the dark. Gandalf goes on to explain who Glorfindel is and that because of Elves like him Quote:
The rest of the chapter works through a number of such apprehensions as Frodo begins to see the world and the people in it in a whole new way. Aragorn looks like a person transformed at the banquet, thanks to his presence near Arwen, who is herself a revelation of the full reality of M-E, in all it’s glory and sadness: “the likeness of Luthien had come on earth again: and she was called Undómiel, for she was the Evenstar of her people.” We are then treated to the poem in the Hall of Fire (which I love, and thanks Aiwendil for your perceptive comments), in which the full beauty of the world is revealed fully to Frodo, immediately followed by Bilbo’s ‘transformation’ in which the full ugliness of the world is rather forcefully brought home to him. It’s almost as though poor old Frodo is stuck between two ways of looking at the world, here in Rivendell. On the one hand, is the way he looks at Arwen at the banquet, in which Frodo is almost able to have Elvish eyes onto the beauty, power and majesty of existence – tinged with sadness though it may be, it is wonderful; on the other hand, he is able to ‘see’ the Nine for what they really are, and Bilbo looks like Gollum to him. This is the conflict that will begin to consume him as he travels (hope and despair?). The chapter ends with a great little bit of foreshadowing though, in which we look ahead to get a hint of how this tension might be resolved for Frodo, finally: Quote:
__________________
Scribbling scrabbling. |
|||
09-14-2004, 05:52 AM | #8 |
Alive without breath
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: On A Cold Wind To Valhalla
Posts: 5,912
|
Expanding a little on the things Fordim just said (posted), it is here that we begin to see more clearly Tolkien’s use of the Hobbits as the ignorant party. In a mythology such as this there always has to be an ignorant party to ask the questions that the readers are asking, thus it helps to get things explained. With out them there would not be a lot that people would understand, else Tolkien would have to paddedd a lot of it out with explanations.
This is especially so in the counsel of Elrond and ever after. I belive that this is also one of the reasons that Gandalf took Pippin to Minas Tirith, Tolkien knew he needed someone to be asking questions about the city and its culture so that the reader did not have to. Well, that what I think anyway.
__________________
I think that if you want facts, then The Downer Newspaper is probably the place to go. I know! I read it once. THE PHANTOM AND ALIEN: The Legend of the Golden Bus Ticket... |
09-14-2004, 06:28 AM | #9 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
One other thing struck me as odd in this chapter - Gandalf's remark: Quote:
|
||||
09-15-2004, 07:55 AM | #10 | ||||||||||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,996
|
Carrying on the story
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What is it that Sam tells Frodo about Rivendell, this place of Faerie? He says, and he speaks of the house, but house is often a metaphor for literature: Quote:
Bilbo, however, understands. To Frodo he says, Quote:
And what does Strider do upon this entrance? Bilbo calls to him for help finishing his song. At the very moment (or time) when the two are collaborating over the song, though, Frodo's apprehension moves away from them. We are never given the scene of their discussions; what does follow is an extraordinary description of the effect of elven music upon Frodo. The actual composition itself is represented in the text by a gap, an absence. And it is reported on only in retrospect. Quote:
Quote:
And what are those other things? A question of authorship, if you please. Quote:
Bilbo leaves the elves to guess and turns with his question to Frodo, who declines. Bilbo explains the authorship as follows: Quote:
Aside: Encaitare, my 'thesis' here did not allow for any mention of your point on the colour green, which I think was a helpful reservation about interpreting colour symbolism, although davem's wonderful examples provide an astonishing wealth to contemplate.
__________________
I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 09-15-2004 at 08:36 AM. |
||||||||||
09-16-2004, 06:43 AM | #11 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
|
Quote:
It seems to me that it was the place he wanted most to exist out of all the places he invented - all the realms & palaces. Its really Mar Vanwa Tyalieva, the Cottage of Lost Play from the Lost Tales in another form. But what does it tell us about him? I can easily see Tolkien, like Bilbo, more at home in Rivendell, than in Oxford or Bag End, & certainly more than in Gondolin or even Rivendell. Actually I could see myself being more at home there than any other place, real or fictional. It seems a place where learning is dominant, where in some sense history is alive, & those who had lived through the great events of history were stilll around to speak to was Tolkien's 'Earthly Paradise'. Its the 'Last Homely House east of the Sea, ie this side of Death, & we know that in an early draft it was intended that Bilbo should die there, & not make the Journey into the West. I think its significant that that its in many ways the ultimate 'home' - the heimat, even more so than the Shire in many ways - at least for Tolkien. I have to say that my image of it is not at all like the movie version - I always think of it as being like one of the Swiss houses he would have seen on his trip to Switzerland, white walled, timbered, shutters on the windows, much simpler than the 'elven palace' the movie gives us - which hardly what I'd call 'homely'. I see roaring fires, wooden bowls, a very 'rustic' place all together (& I'm not sure cuckoo clocks would be out of place!). I can't think of a more Middle-earthly place (apart from the view from the summit of Weathertop!). |
|
09-17-2004, 04:39 PM | #12 | |
Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,480
|
I have been following the comments on the color green in these threads, with some degree of interest. I have long been fond of the hue, and if pressed might just declare it my favorite, so I am finding it rather amusing to discover all the associations and symbolism it brings up. On that note I am finding it rather odd that it should be somehow connected with death, for to my mind, it is invariably connected to verdant growth and life, and standing for obvious reasons for nature. But perhaps I am misunderstanding. I can see that the faerie world and perhaps a sort of earth-based magic conceivably fit this color. Even the sickly greens reminiscent of rot and disease, as discussed in the Fog on the Barrow Downs thread, could in their own right be associated with corrupted form of nature rather than say a spirit world.
So Frodo’s being arrayed in green did not strike me as otherworldly. Especially, taking into consideration it is a favorite color of the hobbits as well. But it does seem striking that so much is made of the color. Aragorn is also dressed in green if you recall, and he insisted Bilbo mention the green stone in his poem. It does appear to be a color of some significance. And if it does represent, for instance, his moving on to a different mindset, I think we can say it is a mindset that Aragorn already possesses. Also mentioned before, I think, but amusing to note once again, is how similar hobbits and elves are in that they only seem interested in the things that concern their people directly, as expressed by Lindir and Gildor. As I write this I am realizing that my feeble judgement rests solely on the comments of two elves! Mercy me! Still, it makes me smile. The mention of Balin almost passes by unnoticed, in the stream of dwarven names. But it is interesting to see Tolkien tying the events in Moria. Quote:
|
|
09-18-2004, 11:31 AM | #13 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
|
Hilde - I too would not associate it with death, but like davem says in his first post on this thread, I'd also associate green with the 'otherworld'. I think it does have some sinister undertones (no pun intended) as a colour, due to this association; it's considered unlucky to wear green at a wedding or to dress a child in green, and witches traditionally have green eyes. I do like the way that elves and hobbits seem to have such a fondness for the colour, as it lends a mystical air to think of someone slipping through woodlands, cloaked in green.
The meeting between Bilbo and Frodo where Bilbo asks to see the ring reminds me of a father and son, wary of one another and Bilbo's words after the ring has been put away are touching. He feels regret that his heir, a hobbit who is very much like his own son, has in effect been 'signed up' for war. One thing struck me the very first time I read this, and that was the appearance of Aragorn standing beside Arwen - here was the rough ranger dressed in kingly fashion, and although the text is very subtle, it was something of a revelation to me exactly why they were standing together, and the image made a big impression on me at that age. I still like these sentences, as Tolkien managed to express their relationship delicately but powerfully in just these few lines. Quite the opposite to the movie.
__________________
Gordon's alive!
|
09-18-2004, 04:20 PM | #14 | ||
Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: You'll See Perpetual Change.
Posts: 1,480
|
Yes, 'other world' but not 'netherworld', I suppose. And I certainly hope the association of green with death and witches derives from the faerie tradition and not the other way round! But at this gathering, Frodo has become recognized as part of the history of Middle-earth, and his simpler life has died. So in some respect, I see these green garments as a symbolic of his new, vital role in history.
It is strange too, how Frodo, when talking with Gandalf about encountering the Witch King, says that it was good he didn't know exactly what the effect of the knife would be, or he would have been too scared to move. Yet as we will see, now that he does know the sort of things he is up against, he volunteers to continue. I wonder if he really was made of sterner stuff than he thought, or whether it was a function of this life long wound. Are some of his actions at this stage to be attributed to the pull of the ring, or rather his close call with becoming a wraith himself? Quote:
Quote:
|
||
09-19-2004, 02:51 AM | #15 | |||
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
|
Finally reaching Strider and the hobbits' first destination, I felt a sigh of relief escaping my lips. Never mind whatever is happening in the world outside nor what danger is yet to come; in this place there is peace, there is healing, and there are Elves, sir!
I was as joyful as Frodo probably was upon again seeing Gandalf. But when he said Quote:
The way Elrond was mentioned by Gandalf made him seem like he was under the authority of the Halfelf. Honestly, I thought that Elrond was a killjoy, an "old maid" what with all his orders. I knew it was all for Frodo's welfare, but after all he's been through, maybe he would cut him some slack. I agree with Frodo with this: Quote:
Moving into the latter part of the chapter, I saw another reason for Aragorn's swoon-worthiness. Quote:
The latter deed concerning Elladan and Elrohir made me realize the sacrifices he has to make for his love for Arwen. I see it this way: the pressing news brought by Elladan and Elrohir concerns, more likely than not, the War of the Ring. And as Elrond said in the Appendix (forgive me, Esty) that he would not let his daughter marry someone less then the King of Gondor or something like that, Aragorn had to put matters related to this first. So instead of spending only a short time with Arwen, as he could have done in this chapter, he chose to do something that (hopefully) in the end would lead to him being with her for the rest of their lives. Swoon! Last edited by Lhunardawen; 09-19-2004 at 02:59 AM. |
|||
09-19-2004, 02:51 PM | #16 | |||
Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,830
|
*Trying to catch up* It was very interesting to read all your posts and as usual I learnt a lot..
I didn't know that the colour green was associated with Faeries, and hitherto the mention of the new green clothes for Frodo had quite escaped my attention. (For me green just stood for nature and life and hope."Grün ist die Hoffnung" as we say in German) I love Gandalf's cryptic remark about Frodo Quote:
Quote:
And the picture of the glass filled with clear light somehow reminds me of Galadriel's phial. That moment when Sam comes in I find particularly touching: Quote:
I love the description of the Elves and their music. Its effect on Frodo reminded me of what Tolkien wrote about the elvish craft, enchantment in „On Fairy-Stories“ To find Bilbo in Rivendell was a big surprise for Frodo. Though Gandalf, Aragorn and Gildor knew all along that Bilbo was there, none of them had told it to Frodo who had been so longing for news about Bilbo ! I wonder why? At my first reading, I could make neither head nor tail of Bilbo’s „Earendil poem“ I kept wondering what it was about.. More glimpses of a mysterious past, and very intriguing, like the non-translated Elbereth song. (I had no rest til I had found out its meaning…thanks to the internet .)
__________________
Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat! |
|||
04-08-2008, 03:16 PM | #17 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
The Second Book Baggins! ...Begins!!!
So here we are, moving on to the next book. We ended up with a cliffhanger, as we will at the end of each book (more or less, except the last), and now the first chapter begins - and it is peaceful and relaxing, as the stay in Rivendell was for Frodo. My impression from this chapter was like that this time: Let's catch up the breath and relax now, while we can. This is the last time we actually can - everything's in place, the Ring is in Rivendell, and nothing evil can happen here, as Gandalf says in this chapter. There will be no other place like that - even in Lórien and such, there is the knowledge of the perilous journey ahead and the despair of the desperate mission lies upon us. Now is the time when we don't know anything about any future quest yet and can just enjoy the atmosphere of the valley.
The atmosphere makes large part of the chapter, another thing is using the time to explain things which happened. During Gandalf's speech to Frodo at the beginning, we learn a lot of information and with Frodo we get lots of answers: what happened at the Ford, what happened before, what the Riders intended, who they were, what the Morgul-Blade was supposed to do, why was Gandalf delayed (sort of - it is not still explained concretely) and other things. What I noticed this time is that several of the characters we already know are emphasised in this chapter and we learn more about them, namely Glorfindel and Aragorn. About Glorfindel we first hear from Gandalf and here we hear what he really is, we confirm what we just assumed from the previous chapter: that he is not "just an ordinary Elf" but someone noble, ancient and powerful. This returns when we see him sitting at the table next to Elrond (and opposite to Gandalf). Let me make a little excourse now - I just thought how interesting this is when I used the words "opposite to Gandalf" - Glorfindel actually is something like an opposite to Gandalf, not meaning any "anti-Gandalf", but more like "second to the pair". I think this might be interesting if one looked at their characteristics deeper (although there's not that much about Glorfindel), but let me name one thing for all - facing the Balrog (that is, if we agree that Glorfindel really is the Glorfindel of Gondolin - which I take as given, but the fact is that it is not stated explicitely anywhere as far as I know). Anyway, the second character worth noticing is Strider, about whom we finally learn (although also not explicitely, but we can put it together from the hints given) his reason for longing so much for Rivendell. Also, we learn about him being "Dúnadan" and we learn who he is (again, twice: first Gandalf says to Frodo that he is "just a Ranger", of course, but that what the Rangers are are the Kings of Men; second, Bilbo explains to Frodo what Dúnadan is - this really looks to me like Frodo is somewhat slow in realising these things). We also have cryptic clues like that Aragorn has something to do with the song of Eärendil and the green stone and other things. Which brings me to the poem of Eärendil, which is a beautiful piece of work, and I actually realised how beautiful and how strong images it has only after I learned to sing it (not in English, though) - I suggest everyone to try that. Another song is the song of Elbereth, written only in Elven language here, and I actually recall I never cared about that. I knew the song in Elvish, and was singing it since I first read the books, and I never cared that I don't know the translation (actually, I thought it is something similar to the song sung by Gildor, maybe even the same - which it actually is not?). I am saying that because that surely says something about the effect of including the song in the book. What else? I could name the minor characters in this chapter - Bilbo, Glóin (very nice fellow. There is actually a tension he causes, since although he provides nice connection and reminds us of the Dwarves from TH, we learn that something happened to several of them - and actually they are the three ones I liked among the most, especially Balin, and I am sure Tolkien was aware of that Balin will be popular among the readers - honestly, tell, which of the living Dwarves you like the most?), Elrond (who is not very active here and is more in the background here), and Arwen. I have to stop at Arwen. She is portrayed as fair, even as an image of Lúthien, Frodo considers her beautiful, and when she looks at Frodo we feel the "Elvishness" shining out from her, yet - yet we don't really learn much about her. In fact, nothing. She does not say a word, and what she is, similarly to what is between her and Aragorn, is only hinted in some way. It is somewhat strange, if nothing else. And last of all characters, I have to name Pippin at least, for I find this piece of dialogue incredibly funny (the boldened part, mainly): Quote:
Well, anyway, what's your view on this chapter? What caught your eye there? Or do you have anything to add which you consider interesting, or important?
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories Last edited by Legate of Amon Lanc; 04-08-2008 at 03:34 PM. |
|
04-08-2008, 07:24 PM | #18 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the Helcaraxe
Posts: 733
|
I find the discussion of this chapter, and Rivendell, as a place to "catch one's breath" interesting, especially in light of what Tolkien had to say about the place, in Letter 131 (itself a long and intriguing "chapter" ):
Quote:
__________________
Call me Ibrin (or Ibri) :) Originality is the one thing that unoriginal minds cannot feel the use of. — John Stewart Mill |
|
08-09-2018, 08:49 AM | #19 | |
Dead Serious
|
Not an essential chapter, plotwise--perhaps not a likely candidate for "only chapter on a desert island" either--but a beautiful one. Though we visited Rivendell in The Hobbit, though we'll stay here through the beginning of "The Ring Goes South," and though we'll pass through again in "Homeward Bound," this chapter is the definitive up-close look at Rivendell. Reading it through this time, it seems that fifteen years of reading critical Tolkien studies have finally sunk in, because this is the first time my mind immediately recognised Rivendell's kinship with the Cottage of Lost Play (a connection also made much earlier on this thread by davem:
Quote:
Though, I feel obliged to point out, that mirroring locations is very much a part of Middle-earth: Gondolin is a mirror of Tirion-on-Túna, the Elvenking's Halls a mirror of Menegroth, Kortirion was a mirror of Kor. And, certainly, there's no conceptual reason why, once he crosses the Seas at the end of this tale, that Elrond could not have built a new home in Tol Eressëa like unto his old one--no reason, in other words, that he could not have been the new Master of the Cottage of Lost Play in a later version of Ælfwine's tale. But even if you hold some private headcanon of that sort, it is still unnecesssary--and how should the tales Ælfwine learns cross back over the unBent seas? Speaking of the transmission of tales in the Hall of Fire, we not only see Rivendell taking on the trappings of the Cottage of Lost Play, but fulfilling its function when Bilbo recites his poem of Eärendil. This poem, believe it or not, is pretty the only complete version of the Mariner's tale that Tolkien ever writes--certainly, it's the last version. It ranks with the Gil-galad and Lúthien poems of "A Knife in the Dark" as a personal favourite, and it's probably the most technically impressive of Tolkien's poems--a poetic form he only mastered once ("Errantry," which features the same scheme, is actually the earlier version of this poem--Tolkien changed it by stages to be about Eärendil.) Continuing the Lost Tales comparison, and looking specifically at connections to Eärendil, both Rivendell and the Cottage of Lost Play feature a direct connection to the Mariner: the Cottage had Ilfirin "Littleheart" the son of Voronwë, who had been a companion of Eärendil on the great voyage, while Rivendell is, of course, the home of Eärendil's son. I always enjoy the line Bilbo gives us from Aragorn, about him having cheek to make verses about Eärendil in the House of Elrond, because it hasn't been made explicit yet that Elrond is Eärendil's son--and though Elrond tells us this directly in the next chapter, "The Council of Elrond" is so full of details about history and the plot that it is easy to forget (as a 11-year-old version of me did) that the light of Eärendil's Star in the Phial of Galadriel is the light of Elrond's dad's star.
__________________
I prefer history, true or feigned.
|
|
08-19-2018, 09:06 PM | #20 |
Laconic Loreman
|
I've always appreciated how the chapters in Book I and Book II follow the same pattern, to the point where they nearly mirror each other.
A Long-Expected Party - Many Meetings What happens in these chapters is a grand party/feast takes place and the matter of the Ring is pushed off/delayed to a later time. A Long-Expected Party, we aren't told anything about the Ring other than Bilbo's acting most unusual and Gandalf's worried about it. Many Meetings, Frodo presses Gandalf for answers on why he was delayed and what will be done with the Ring now that he's got it this far to Rivendell. Gandalf keeps refusing to answer, or only giving half-answers and says "we'll talk about that later, for the present all is good." During the feast, Gloin guesses at Frodo's troubles and reasons he's in Rivendell, Frodo doesn't want to talk about it and Gloin doesn't want to discuss why he's in Rivendell, at the present. It's a chapter, where all the characters keep saying they don't want to discuss anything to do with the Ring or why Elrond's called for a Council, 'at the present'. A Long-Expected Party we weren't aware of the danger of the Ring. In Many Meetings we are and we know the Ring can't stay in Rivendell, but the question of what's going to happen gets put off to a date that's not the present. And then both chapters get followed by some of the longest chapters in the books, with a lot of dialogue and the question "what will happen with the Ring?" is thoroughly discussed, And here we see another side to Aragorn's character I never really considered before. His bloodline and descent from Numenor is made clear in this chapter. He is one of the 'high and mighty' characters, but soon after this is revealed by Gandalf and Bilbo there he is sitting and helping an old hobbit write songs. Some other tidbits I picked up on this time through - Gloin's mention "tolls" charged by Grimbeorn and his folk in keeping the path from Dale to Rivendell safe for travelers. You can get stuck thinking this is a tale of just all good people vs. all evil people, but Grimbeorn's charging 'high tolls' to keep roads safe. I know it's absurd but I'm just picturing Grimbeorn and a band of merry men (think they wore tights?) -The description (through Frodo's eyes) of his first sight of Elrond, with Glorfindel and Gandalf on his right and left hand side: "revealed as lords of dignity and power" Gandalf shorter than the other two, but looked "like some wise king of ancient legend" Glorfindel "voice like music, on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength." Elrond "Venerable" "a tried warrior in the fullness of his strength," "mighty among both Elves and Men."
__________________
Fenris Penguin
|
|
|