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Old 09-09-2004, 02:51 PM   #1
Aiwendil
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Two minor comments that can't pretend to fully address anything said above:

Davem wrote:
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Once he is able to rest & make a decision he accepts the task of taking the Ring to the fire - but does he make that choice out of defiance or despair?
I would say neither; rather: he knew that accepting the task was the morally right thing to do, unequivocally, regardless of how he felt about it. I don't know whether he felt despair or defiance or hope or all three; but I think that his decision was made without respect to these things. Later, when he effectively makes the same decision at Amon Hen, Sam correctly analyzes his predicament: he is not trying to make up his mind at all; he knows exactly what he ought to do - he is only working up his courage to actually do it.

Child of the Seventh Age wrote:
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Despair is the last characteristic I normally associate with Sam. Yet here, Sam can not control his negativity.
Recall also what he tells himself when he learns that Frodo was not in fact killed by Shelob: "The trouble with you is that you never really had any hope." Also in IV-3 we have "After all, he never had any real hope in the affair from the beginning; but being a cheerful hobbit he had not needed hope, as long as despair could be postponed."

He does not despair, but only because he can "postpone" it. Shippey cites this passage and argues that Sam is cheerful but not hopeful - one can be cheerful (outwardly agreeable, putting on a good face) with or without real inner hope or joy.
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Old 09-10-2004, 12:31 PM   #2
davem
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The Wasteland is a strange image for Middle earth - where or what is the Grail? The Land is made waste because the Grail has been lost, yet in Middle earth there never was a Grail. There were the Silmarils, of course - did the loss of the Silmarils cause the Land to be laid waste - yet if so, how can it ever be healed, as they can never be won back. The Quest of the Silmarils ended with the First Age. I suppose the Trees could be the primal Grails - in a sense they do reapear at the end of LotR - the White (silver) Tree of Gondor & the Mallorn (gold) Tree of the Shire. Is that it? The Silmarillion proper begins with the Two Trees which are lost, bringing an end to the 'Golden Age', leading to Middle earth's slow, inevitable, descent into the Wasteland state, & it ends with the Two Trees of Middle earth in the Shire & Gondor.

To what extent was the Ring Quest a Grail Quest, as much as an anti-Grail Quest? To have both Aragorn's journey & Sam's end in the birth of new Trees seems symbolic.

It is significant that the more one pays attention to Tolkien's statements about the Land, the more 'alive' it seems, the more a conscious participant in events. The very earth of the Old Forest, not just the trees, seemed to move & have a will of its own. It is perhaps the most intensely 'feminine' presence in the story - certainly, it seems to be the most permanently 'present' feminine presence. It has 'moods', which can be so powerful they overwhelm the individuals who move across its face. Its as if Middle earth herself is also aware of her woundedness & is seeking healing, & that healing is symbolised by the two Trees.
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Old 09-10-2004, 12:55 PM   #3
Aiwendil
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Davem wrote:
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There were the Silmarils, of course - did the loss of the Silmarils cause the Land to be laid waste - yet if so, how can it ever be healed, as they can never be won back. The Quest of the Silmarils ended with the First Age. I suppose the Trees could be the primal Grails
I think that the grail-quality of the Silmarils derives in large part from the Trees, since after the destruction of the trees the Silmarils alone contain their untainted light. If we look at the 1920s - 1930s mythology, the Silmarils will in fact be won back at the end of the world, after which Feanor will present them to Yavanna to be broken, and the Trees will be renewed. But the scale of that myth gives it more of a saviour/doomsday quality than a grail quality.
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