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#1 | ||||
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Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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The other aspect of the passage that I find compelling (and confusing – it’s usually one and the same thing) is the ambiguous way in which Frodo relates to his ‘failure’ at Weathertop. He offers us three different versions of what went wrong. First, he “regrets” his “foolishness”, implying that he made simple mistake, but one that he can learn from (like our favourite “fool of a Took” proves, one can overcome folly with greater wisdom and experience). At the same time, though, he “reproaches” – that is, he blames himself, not just “regretting” an unfortunate moment – for his “weakness of will.” So now it’s his fault at a more fundamental level; his will is weak. This is more disturbing than folly, for one can learn from one’s mistakes, but how can one strengthen one’s will? Possible, I suppose, but difficult. The last version is that he “obeyed” the “commanding wish” of the Witch King. So now it’s not entirely his fault, for he was being “commanded” by an outside force. So here we are with the old dilemma in our discussions of the Ring, presented in a compact form here, to be rehearsed at the Cracks of Doom in much more painful detail: is Frodo giving in to an outside force, is he failing in his own will, or is he making a mistake like anyone would? I think that the fact this is happening so early in his journeys bodes very badly for the success of the Quest! The chapter also strengthens the resonance between Frodo and Aragorn. Aragorn says: Quote:
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But, the chapter is not all dark, for it also hints at how Frodo will be able to succeed in his quest by highlighting the hobbitish nature that will let him destroy the Ring (or bring the Ring to the point where it can be destroyed). As they hobbits look at the stone that marks where the Dwarves hid the troll treasure: Quote:
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Scribbling scrabbling. |
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#2 | |
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Laconic Loreman
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Well put Fordhim I don't see how I can expand upon your points, for I think you covered it well. I will say about the whole "treasury came from robbers." It reminds me of a movie (that I can't really think of right now it might be Once upon a Time in the West), but it's where the person couldn't except "blood money" or "tainted money." Blood money, meaning that money that came from someone getting killed, or other illegal ways. In Bilbo's case this happens to be "tainted treasure" in which case he might not be able to live with that anymore and gives it up to Frodo. Which, as you say is a clue to the ending, Frodo we first see give up all that wealth of Bag End to his more hated relatives the Sackville-Bagginses, and then getting the ring to Mount Doom creating in oppurtunity for Frodo to be completely free of this "tainted treasure."
Also, here is a very pivotal part of the Book, the Wraiths are assailing Weathertop, so the Ring either stays in the hands of Frodo, or gets into the hands of Sauron's servants and ending all hope of destruction. Here we get to see the wraiths again failing to accomplish their mission, who knows why, maybe its because they aren't in possession of their 9 rings and aren't as powerful without them. Aiwendil said: Quote:
Last edited by Boromir88; 09-07-2004 at 02:42 PM. |
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#3 |
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Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,461
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Healing
One thing that I have wondered for a while is that is if Aragorn's power in healing changes as the book progresses. When Frodo is injured, Aragorn's power is not enough. Is this just because Aragorn did not have the instrument necessary to remove the splinter in the wild? Or is it an extension of the idea of King as healer and that is only when Aragorn has effectively if not technically become king that he obtains his full power? I realise that the splinter was probably a major factor but the idea of a king having special healing powers was around for a long time in English history at least with Scrofula so I wonder how much was due to the actual kingship rather than the lineage.
The Black Breath also seems to have varied in its strength; Merry is relatively unscathed at Bree, here it is hard to tell how much Frodo is affected because of the physical injury, but it doesn't seem to be such a factor as it was for Eowyn and Merry at the Pelennor ( possible factors might be the greater power of the Witch King, proximity to Mordor, closer proximity to the Nazgul ie attacking him). Another thing that I have puzzled over may have have its answers in some of the earlier discussion about the "other dimension" experienced by the wraiths and Glorfindel. It is that when Glorfindel touches Frodo's wound and he feels some comfort. Now I had wondered whether this was merely an elvish quirk or something more specific relating to Glorfindel as a powerful elf lord. Now I see it could be a more direct counteracting of the dark power by the light. Finally on the subject of light: it hadn't really occured that Glorfindel revealed in his power might be something only Frodo might have seen. Gildor's company had a light about them if I remember correctly and I just assumed that making a mighty elf lord angry was just like increasing the wattage! But if it was something that only Frodo saw then it might tie into Gandalf's thoughts about Frodo in the next chapter, that he would become like a vessel of white light for those with the eyes to see it. I may be getting carried away here, but it seems to me that in a sense, this is Frodo's death. He has sustained an injury that will prevent him returning to his old life. He has crossed from the physical to the spiritual zone and although they leave their mark, none of the further injuries he will suffer kill him. There is the possible symbolism of the ford of Bruinen as either "crossing the river" in to death or as a kind of baptism into a new spiritual life. It may be far fetched but two other figures who are seen as vessels of white light are reborn - Glorfindel and Gandalf. To return to solid ground from speculation, I would say that I love the way that this chapter "tidies in" Gildor. I used to think that it was a bit callous of him to abandon Frodo although I suppose he may have expected Gandalf to be at Bree and may have"tipped off" the rangers too so it is nice to know that he got messages back to rivendell (I am still digesting "osane kenta" sp? - I had wondered about elvish telepathy beforebut thought that the elves could possibly have got back to Rivendell that much more quickly).
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#4 |
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Fordim makes some important points (as usual). Its too easy to forget that Frodo is a hobbit from a non-violent culture (no hobbit of the Shire had ever killed another deliberately) who has never encountered physical violence in any form (unless we count Old Man Willow, but that was very ‘dreamlike). There have been warnings, & his room at the Prancing Pony had been ravaged, but now someone, something, had tried to kill him, & the wound he recieved was not even a normal stab wound, but one that could slowly kill him. Clearly he begins to suffer from post traumatic stress, which grows throughout this chapter. Beings are trying to kill him, simply because of the burden he carries. What we see are his attempts to make sense of it, blaming others, himself, circumstances.
What is clear is that he is the kind of person who will turn on himself & blame himself for circumstances outside his control, & we can see a foreshadowing of how he will end up. He makes himself into both a victim of circumstances & at the same time he sees himself as culpable - he has brought things on himself, its all his fault. He failed to act properly. We may feel at the end of the book almost like shaking Frodo & telling him not to blame himself, it wasn't his fault that he succumed to the power of the Ring, & he should forgive himself, but it seems even now that he's not capable of that - as far as he's concerned the terrrible things that happen to him are somehow 'deserved', he brings them on himself through his weakness & foolishness. How many times throughout his journey will he do this? He also has a tendency to blame himself for the failures of others, as if he's taking their 'sins' onto himself. At the end he can ask Sam to forgive Gollum, even forgive Gollum himself, but he can't forgive himself for the choice Gollum made, & can't bring himself to ask forgiveness for himself, because he seems to feel he's not worthy of it. The Shire has been saved - but not for him, because he doesn't deserve it. Whether we see Tolkien himself, the survivor of the Somme battle that took the lives of two out of his three closest friends is another mattter, but all along what we see in Frodo is 'survivor guilt'. One wonders if he even feels pity for the Ring-wraiths, seeing them as not responsible for their actions, being slaves of the Ring. Why can't he accept that other's make free choices, & are responsible for their actions, when he sees himself as responsible for everything he himself does? Its like he wants to save everyone else, but can't bring himself to see himself as worthy of being saved himself. He refuses to ride off on Asfaloth, because that would be to 'desert' his friends, its only when Glorfindel points out that if he stayed he'd put them in greater danger than if he goes, that he rides off. Later he won't even let Aragorn look at his wound after the orc stabs him in Moria, because he doesn't want any 'fuss' made. But has he always been that way, or is it some effect of the Ring on him, some isolating effect? Does it show some perverted sense of being in control, being the one who is responsible for everything? Mithalwen’s point about crossing the river symbolising death seem important - with each subsequent river crossing Frodo seems to move further & further ‘inward’, towards the source of the ‘magical’ core of Middle earth (as opposed to the ‘mystical’ core) Orodruin, the place where the magic came into being, the place that draws the ringbearers. (Random thoughts...) |
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#5 | ||
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Laconic Loreman
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Davem wrote:
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#6 | |
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A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Frodo's first reaction, that he may be maimed for life, rings a bell with me - it is the immediate sense of fear and regret. He then has nightmares, and imagines that Aragorn is one of the ringwaraiths; he is seeing the potential for trauma in other, harmless things. After his physical recovery, the trauma still remains to be brought to the surface under stressful circumstances, in situations which remind him of the attack, and on anniversaries. As davem says, hobbits are not a warlike people and would never expect to be injured by a sword in an unprovoked attack, so this life event naturally takes a devastating toll on Frodo. Although I don't think PTSD was recognised until relatively recently (correct me if I am wrong), it is said that the widespread shell-shock of WWI was basically PTSD, and I don't doubt that seeing the effect that this had was translated into Tolkien's own writing when he wished to decribe the effects of the attack on Frodo. |
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#7 |
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Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Anyone interested in an analysis of Frodo's experience of PTSD/survivor guilt might want to read Karen Milos' essay 'Too Deeply Hurt:Understanding Frodo's Decision to Depart:
http://www.geocities.com/karynmilos/toodeeplyhurt.html |
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#8 |
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A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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That is an excellent article, davem. It confirms what I had been thinking about Frodo's suffering. What interests me is that at the end he feels he must sail to the Undying Lands, this is his only hope of recovery, yet away from ME there are no Undying Lands and we must seek our own recovery in other ways, one of which may be seeking solace in LOTR itself. Frodo finds no recovery that we can see (he may find this in the West, but we don't know this), and this is one of the saddest elements of the story, that we do not know if Frodo achieved 'closure' as the counsellors call it.
In the article it raised the poisonous words of Saruman who tells Frodo that there will be no rest for him - is this Saruman's wisdom or Saruman displaying the lack of understanding which sufferers experience from other people? I was also thinking about the Black Breath and whether this might be an emblem or symbol for depression. Certainly, I have heard people talk of depressive episodes as 'black moods' or 'black holes', and wondered if the Ringwaraiths' infliction of 'Black Breath' on others could be a symbol of people inflicting sorrow or heartache upon other people? |
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