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Old 09-06-2004, 06:47 AM   #1
davem
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davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Christopher Tolkien makes some interesting observations on an early draft of this chapter:
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In this chapter it is made plain that the commands of the Ring-wraiths are communicated worlessly to the bearer of the Ring, & that they have great power over his will. Moreover the idea has now entered that the wound of the Ring-wraith's knife produces, or begins to produce, a similar effect to that brought on by putting on the Ring: the world becomes shadowy & dim to Bingo, & at the end of the chapter he can see the riders plain, beneath the black wrappings that to others cloak their invisibility.
The Return of the Shadow
While he's referring to the early drafts, I think these points are very important. The morgul blade has the same effect on Frodo as the Ring, so it is another means of enslaving & 'wraithing' an individual. Also interesting is the way Frodo is passing into the otherworld, so again we are shown that there is another, underlying 'reality' going on beneath the surface. Its like there are two stories going on, or one story going on in two worlds. Both Glorfindel & the wraiths live in both worlds - yet is it the same supernatural dimension that he & they inhabit? This would appear to bring up all kinds of metaphysical problems & possibilities. Glorfindel manifests plainly to Frodo's eyes the Holy Light of Valinor, the Light of the Trees, which he had known before Morgoth slew them, & he has spent time in the Halls of Mandos, & been purified of his 'sin' in the Rebellion. This quite probably makes him one of the most powerful beings in Middle earth. It also explains why the Nazgul flee from him.

I don't know how uncomfortable some others felt with the episode with the trolls, but to me it felt a little 'forced', as though Tolkien put it in there in order simply to tie the 'New Hobbit' in with the 'Old'. These stone trolls, with bird's nests behind their ears seem too out of place. Still, it got us Sam's song, so I'll be forgiving. It also got us his declaration that he doesn't want to be either a wizard or a warrior, & maybe, just maybe, thats a glimpse of the reason he's able to resist the lure of the Ring - he simply doesn't want anything it could offer him.

Finally, the confrontation with the riders - this shows Tolkien's superiority over the movie scriptwriters, as the culmination of this chapter simply blows away the rather silly version in the movie. Frodo's defiance of the Nazgul, in his near death state, is so moving, so inspiring - though his attempt at commanding them to obey him possibly has darker implications - that what the movie offers us in its place is simply pathetic.

(Oh, I noticed for the first time on this reading that the Nazgul attempt to stop Frodo with the Black Breath:
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A breath of deadly cold pierced him like a spear, as with a last spurt, like a flash of white fire, the elf-horse speeding as if on wings, passed right before the face of the foremost rider.
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Old 09-06-2004, 06:55 AM   #2
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Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Interesting thoughts, davem, and they prompted another thought - was Frodo the only one who saw Glorfindel shining in the light of Valinor? Was he able to see that because of the influence of the Ring? Could only those who had some connection with the spiritual realm see the light? If so, then there had to be at least some contact between the spiritual realms of light and darkness; apparently the Wraiths saw the light as well. I'm reminded of Biblical accounts of battles between the forces of good and evil, unseen by earthly beings.
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Old 09-06-2004, 08:50 AM   #3
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About the light... I think that being able to see it must have something to do with a connection to the other world. Elves must be able to see the light on each other, since they are very close to the "spiritual realm". It must be very unusual for a mortal, like Frodo, to see the light because mortals-men, dwarves, and hobbits, are more concerned with the real world, for lack of a better term.

I think Frodo could see the light because of the effects of the Morgul blade drawing him away to the spirit world.

However, I don't think Wraiths are in one place or another: They have no visible form, but are able to affect the real world. Frodo was being drawn to their halfway world and so could see the light of Valinor because he was partially in the spiritual realm.
---

I love this chapter...It starts out rather grim with Frodo being stabbed and everything, but at this point in the book, the lighter tone still has its moments, perhaps the last moments we will see of the more light writing... The whole thing with the trolls is a great example. Though at first the hobbits are frightened by the possibility of real trolls, the scene turns into a lighthearted adventure in which Strider gets a chance to joke around a little and all the hobbits get their last laugh for a while.

I loved this, too:
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'Where did you come by that [poem], Sam?' asked Pippin. 'I've never heard those words before.'
Sam muttered something inaudible. 'It's out of his own head, of course,' said Frodo. 'I am learning a lot about Sam Gamgee on this journey. First he was a conspirator, now he's a jester. He'll end up by becoming a wizard--or a warrior!'
'I hope not,' said Sam. 'I don't want to be neither!'
On a first read-through, it looks like Frodo's just carrying on with the light mood of the episode, but, coming back to this after knowing already what happens in the rest of the story, there is a definite element of truth in what Frodo says in what looks like a joking manner. Sam does become something of a warrior, and even has the Orc partols in Mordor thinking he's a fierce Elf with a sword or maybe a battle-axe!
---
I agree with davem about the scene at the ford: The book version is much more inspiring and intense. This is the hero-Frodo that doesn't come out so much in the movies. Frodo shows a great inner strength that I don't notice as much in the movie. By the force of his own will, he holds the wraiths off for as long as he can. He resists to the last, fighting so hard against the rising darkness...compared to the movie where he sits like a dummy in front of Arwen on the horse and does absoloutely nothing. I love the movies, but this scene is done much more effectively in the book. The emotions inspired are very different... PJ was going for something else... Tolkien's Frodo inspires the readers and shows just how strong he actually is... The movie shows us how strong Arwen supposedly is. Frodo's battle is much more powerful.

I don't really have an issue with Arwen being there in the movie: If they had kept Glorfindel in, but had kept Frodo weak and just sitting there, I would have had a problem with that, too. I understand that they needed a way to introduce Arwen, so I'm not picking on the fact that it was her: I'm picking on the fact that it isn't Frodo's heroism that we see.
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Old 09-06-2004, 12:34 PM   #4
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However, I don't think Wraiths are in one place or another: They have no visible form, but are able to affect the real world.
The Nazgul are product of what I call "Saurons Perfect Necromancy (SPN)".
I like to think of it like this;
The Barrow Wights were essays in the craft, just like the lesser rings were to the Smiths of Eregion.
The Nazgul were perfection in the craft, Like the Tree Elven rings.
Do you see where I am coming from?

Back on topic;
Glorfindel tells Strider to keep the hilt of the Morgul blade, so that Elrond can read the runes from it. To me this seemed very similar to the happenings in the Hobbit concerning Glamdring and Orcrist.

Also, I found that here, the Black riders seem to embed their greatest fears in Frodo. Although, to me, they seemed more threatening when they were an unknown shadow in the shire. At least back in the shire Frodo ran but with not as much fear as he had now. He now knows what they are and where they are from, this seems to leave him even more afraid of the, with obvious reasons.

Quote:
Fear now filled Frodo's mind. He thought no longer of his sword.
At Weather-top Frodo actually considered fighting, but now he is certain that he cannot match up to them, and with no hope falls into disperse.

I think it is here that the desire for the ring works against Sauron. If it was not so precious to Frodo, his will may have broken there and he would have given up the ring with no second thought. However, his great desire for the ring helps him to hold out ageist them.
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Old 09-06-2004, 01:00 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookbill
Glorfindel tells Strider to keep the hilt of the Morgul blade, so that Elrond can read the runes from it. To me this seemed very similar to the happenings in the Hobbit concerning Glamdring and Orcrist.
Or perhaps the morgul blade had a dual existence, it existed in slightly different forms in both worlds - its 'normal' world form had no writings on the hilt, but its otherworld form did. This opens up a whole new 'dimension' - hidden symbols & messages which can only be seen by those 'walkers between the worlds' like Glorfindel, the wraiths & Frodo. An interesting thing for me is that before treating Frodo's wound with Athelas, Aragorn takes time out to sit down & sing a song over the knife hilt! Why was this important. It reminds me of an old folkbelief (not exactly comparable, I admit), the so-called 'weapon-salve':
Quote:
In 1631, William Foster published a treatise called Hoplo-Chrisma Spongus; or, A Sponge to Wipe Away the Weapon Salve, wherein he sought to prove that this alleged remedy was magical & unlawful - he might have added, futile & imaginary.

Werenfels says; - 'If the superstitious person be wounded by any chance, he applies the salve, not to the wound, but what is more effectual, to the weapon by which he recieved it.
'Dictionary of Faiths & Folklore', WC Hazlitt (1905)
Athelas is also interesting, as its healing 'power' seems to come as much from Aragorn as from any inherent virtue it may have. (Of course, this is contradicted by a comment made by Tolkien that the healing herb Huan brings to Luthien to cure Beren was also Athelas.)
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Old 09-06-2004, 01:32 PM   #6
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For me, in this chapter Frodo proves himself as a hero for the first time. (of course you can argue there's that Barrow Downs scene when he's cutting off that spidery hand, but that was a desperate gesture, preceeded by many arguments for and against that valiant deed, some not very hero-like...):

I remember reading for the first time and becoming more and more impressed with Frodo, whereas before I was just patiently expectant. What really got to me from the start was his ability to quietly and calmly endure debilitating pains and later on, the fact that he did not ruminate on his very likely to be tragic future, not to mention the tragic outcome of his quest. The chapter is generally from Frodo's point of view, and the only time Frodo allows himself to sink in dark thoughts is when he wonders how they will get on with their journey, seeing as he's unable to walk. I find that really admirable about him. And, of course no less admirable is his final stand at the Ford. I agree with davem that the movie belittles a scene that speaks volumes about Frodo and his desires and courage. It's funny that you used the word 'inspiring' - I was about to comment that the famous line in which Frodo invokes Elbereth and Luthien the Fair sounds like it was 'inspired' to him, by whom I don't know, maybe by the proximity of Rivendell, maybe by Glorfindel.

Glorfindel is another revelation of this chapter, and one of my favourite characters. His presence, especially in the context of these troubled events is comforting and protective. He also represents a reader's first encounter with a really powerful Elf. His powers are hinted at even from the moment of his appearance, as Frodo perceives the 'white light' that engulfs him, and later on, as he is able to ease Frodo's pain and clear his vision, even involuntarily, with a simple touch. Speaking of Glorfindel's appearance on his horse, Asfaloth, here's a line that I love:
Quote:
Clearer and nearer now the bells jingled,
and clippety-clip came the quick trotting feet
As you notice, it almost rhymes and it has a lighthearted rhythm to go with it, as if to assure that this is indeed no Black Rider who approaches.
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Old 09-06-2004, 02:23 PM   #7
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The Wraith-world

While reading this chapter I had some musings on the Wraith-world similar to davem's.
Quote:
Both Glorfindel & the wraiths live in both worlds - yet is it the same supernatural dimension that he & they inhabit?
I would argue that it is in fact the same spiritual dimension, albeit different parts of it. When Frodo puts on the Ring and enters into the wraith-world, he sees them as pale-shining white figures. Glorfindel is a brightly shining figure of white light. In this way they are similar. Maybe the difference in brightness has to do with the good and evil of the being. It would seem that the wraith-world is a dimension of dim shadows in which shapes are clear but there is very little coloration. This can be gotten from Aragorn, in chapter 11
Quote:
"They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared."
compared to Frodo here
Quote:
Frodo's pain had redoubled, and during the day things about him faded to shadows of ghostly gray. He almost welcomed the coming of night, for then the world seemed less pale and empty.
and here
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With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world.
Both of these examples are from later stages in the journey from Weathertop to Rivendell when Frodo is falling more and more into the wraith-world and seeing things like the Nazgűl. An interesting thing is that Frodo was able to see Glorfindel revealed in his full majesty while not wearing the Ring. This could be an indicator of how close he was coming to succombing to the Morgul blade and the Riders. The Riders too were able to perceive Glorfindel's light, according to Gandalf in the next chapter. This I would see as an argument that they are a part of the same spiritual dimension.

The first quote from Aragorn also touches on a point that I think is relevant to the Morgul blade: "they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us." Later Glorfindel says about the signs on the hilt: "maybe your eyes cannot see them." This would seem to indicate that only those with a connection to the spiritual realm can see/read the signs on the sword. The blade seems to have a very tight connection to the spirtual dimension; if it were just a regular sword I do not think the broken sliver would have continued to work its way inward. This is also a possible reason for why the blade disintegrated.
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Old 09-06-2004, 02:38 PM   #8
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Tolkien has spent almost all of book I (with the exception of chapters 1, 6, 7, and 8) building up the suspense surrounding the Black Riders. It is in this chapter that the suspense really pays off, and gives us a climax to the first book that is both exciting and fulfilling.

Frodo's journey in this chapter seems almost to be a miniature version of his journey in Mordor. Here it is the Morgul blade that threatens to turn him into a wraith; later it is the Ring. In both cases he becomes increasingly weak and distant, so that the real business of journeying is handled by his companions. But in both cases he is in the end separated from his companions and forced to handle things by himself. And that's where the important difference comes - in this chapter he succeeds; he has his moment of heroism where he stands up to the Black Riders.

The climax here is, as Davem has already pointed out, far better than what Jackson and his team came up with. It completely undermines the scene for Frodo to have a companion at the end. In the book, there is sort of a miniature eucatastrophe. It appears not only unlikely that Frodo will escape; it appears hopeless. He is alone across the ford from the Nazgul. He cannot outrun them and he knows no reason that they should not be able to simply cross the river and reach him. He is saved by something totally unexpected - the power of Elrond over the river. It's not a huge climax, but it fits Tolkien's usual climactic structure perfectly.

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Old 09-06-2004, 09:46 PM   #9
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Aiwendil:
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It appears not only unlikely that Frodo will escape; it appears hopeless. He is alone across the ford from the Nazgul. He cannot outrun them and he knows no reason that they should not be able to simply cross the river and reach him. He is saved by something totally unexpected - the power of Elrond over the river. It's not a huge climax, but it fits Tolkien's usual climactic structure perfectly.
Very nice point made about the structure. You get that structure throughout the story I believe. As one example, the end of the book, the destruction of the ring. Frodo fails, he decides to keep the ring for himself, and then it ends up in the hands of Gollum, and then everyone is thinking sure as heck ain't gonna be destroyed now. Well in all stories it eventually would but right now you are thinking theres still a lot of pages to go, wonder what will happen. Then something no one expects happens, some very "unusual," Gollum in all his joy slips and falls into Mount Doom.

Another point of Tolkien's structure and I wish I could draw a picture of it. But anyway...

Ok, start out, many small problems start happening, which causes our interest to be hightened. So now the "storyline" rises, and keeps rising until the highest point the "climax." Then there is the solution to the climax, and the "storyline" falls. But then another small problem/task occurs in the shire so there is a short rise at the end to catch our attention. That rise/fall after the climax is what is referred to as a "denuement" (spelling? its a stupid french term). Something that isn't very common amongst writes, most "storylines" end at the highest point, the climax then the solution. But, there are a few writers who will end their story with the slight rise in the end.
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Old 10-22-2004, 09:54 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar
was Frodo the only one who saw Glorfindel shining in the light of Valinor? Was he able to see that because of the influence of the Ring? Could only those who had some connection with the spiritual realm see the light? If so, then there had to be at least some contact between the spiritual realms of light and darkness; apparently the Wraiths saw the light as well. I'm reminded of Biblical accounts of battles between the forces of good and evil, unseen by earthly beings.

....Yup. Pervasive, I think, so much so (to me) that I am surprised it is a matter of question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Athelas is also interesting, as its healing 'power' seems to come as much from Aragorn as from any inherent virtue it may have. (Of course, this is contradicted by a comment made by Tolkien that the healing herb Huan brings to Luthien to cure Beren was also Athelas.)
Not a contradiction, davem! Luthien has plenty of innate power too-- plenty more than Aragorn, I think. Can you imagine Aragorn singing to Melkor! eeeeep.

Seems to me that it's not just the herb (an infusion of which is good for headaches) and not just the man(why did he go looking for the athelas if the power all came from him anyway?) -- but a process involving rest, easing of pain, and immersion in truth and what is good. I'm thinking of the Houses of Healing, where Aragorn first infuses the athelas, then uses osanwe to go after the wandering soul. Again, Aragorn didn't start without the Athelas; but just the herb without the man would have only cured the headache, not the Black Breath.
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