‘The Workhouse’ – Tolkien’s Purgatory - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 09-03-2004, 03:25 AM

I think this is one instance where alegory is vital for the story to work for people with a belief system different to the author's. Because its about a 'journey' to (or through) a 'workhouse', rather than being about death & Purgatory, the essential meaning of the story, the idea the author wants to communicate (which is the one Esty has pointed up, I think), is not dismissed by (or at the least 'unavailable' to) the non Catholic reader. Also, I can't help feeling that if the allegory had been more blatant then the sub-creation aspect of the story would have been lost.

Estelyn Telcontar · 09-03-2004, 03:37 AM

I’m continuing to ponder the applicability of Tolkien’s afterlife allegory. It seems especially significant to me that the purgatorial corrective is preceded by death. Now, literal death can’t be applicable to life, since it ends life, so it must apply to something else. The Biblical terminology of “dying to sin” comes to mind, or the psychological idea of letting something go. Don’t worry, I won’t begin publicly reflecting on what I need to give up in order to make way for corrective balance in my life, but I had an enlightening thought –

Tolkien meant (perhaps only sub-consciously) this story to be applicable to his life! It was not primarily an allegory for a literal purgatory, though that fit in with his Catholic doctrine. But he wrote Leaf by Niggle relatively early in his life, too early to make it merely an analogy to afterlife. Otherwise he would have been wishing to die in order to gain what he thought he needed, and I don’t think that was the case. He was feeling his lack in important areas of his life and wished for a corrective influence. For those who have read Tolkien’s biography, it isn’t difficult to recognize the similarities of his and Niggle’s character traits and what was needed to balance them.

So, what might he have felt he needed to give up, let go, die to, in order to gain the characteristics he felt were lacking? Niggle had to leave his unfinished painting, which was only completed (then as a reality) in the afterlife. Tolkien wrote this story during a creative crisis, being unable to finish The Lord of the Rings, Carpenter suggests in his biography. Did he think he would have to leave it uncompleted? Or did he realize that his perfectionism, like Niggle’s, stood in the way of completion?

I know that he didn’t appreciate amateur psychologists who try to analyze authors in order to compare them to their works, and that is not my intention. However, I feel that we can learn from understanding what he was trying to tell himself – and his readers – here.

PS - I read davem's post after writing mine - I think our thoughts are going in the same direction there.

Child of the 7th Age · 09-03-2004, 06:15 AM

Esty, Davem,

These are interesting ideas. I do have a question regarding this:

Quote:

Tolkien wrote this story during a creative crisis, being unable to finish The Lord of the Rings, Carpenter suggests in his biography. Did he think he would have to leave it uncompleted? Or did he realize that his perfectionism, like Niggle’s, stood in the way of completion?

When we consider the "real life" events that led Tolkien to write Niggle, another question comes to mind. I wonder if he was thinking solely about the Lord of the Rings in terms of perfectionism and not finishing his work, or of the Legendarium as a whole. I know that sometimes when I am in a funk, I begin thinking about the immediate problem at hand (e.g., not finishing the particular project I am working on ---in JRRT's case LotR) and, before long, that problem becomes larger and larger in my head, until I am thinking about a much grander set of similar problems and my basic character "limitation" that has put me in this mess.

Is it possible that the author was ruminating on the entire Lgendarium in its unfinished state -- what he still regarded as the "true masterpiece" of his life -- or were his thoughts confined to the immediate book at hand? I could be reading events backwards into this: specifically, the fact that Tolkien would never finish the Silm, something he onviously could not have known. If he was only thinking of LotR, wasn't that a new way of viewing that work? Did he now realize on some level that it would be LotR which would be the central masteripiece he would leave rather than the older tales of the Legendarium?

Sorry about these vagaries, but does anyone have thoughts on this....

Bêthberry · 04-24-2007, 03:21 PM

Humpety Bumpety, in case some of the newer members have anything to apply to the topic. I'm sure Esty would be grateful, even if the rest of you Dead wouldn't be.

davem · 04-24-2007, 04:10 PM

Hasn't the Pope just done away with Purgatory? Or is it just Limbo that's been consigned to, er, limbo?

Selmo · 04-25-2007, 02:41 AM

The Catholic Church has down-played purgatory since Vatican II and has now dropped it completely.

However, that would not have affected Tolkien's thinking. He grew up believing the erroneous idea of purgatory and would believe it still, no matter what the Pope said. He hated change. For example, he was never comfortable with the Mass in English instead of Latin.
.

09-03-2004, 03:25 AM	#1
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	I think this is one instance where alegory is vital for the story to work for people with a belief system different to the author's. Because its about a 'journey' to (or through) a 'workhouse', rather than being about death & Purgatory, the essential meaning of the story, the idea the author wants to communicate (which is the one Esty has pointed up, I think), is not dismissed by (or at the least 'unavailable' to) the non Catholic reader. Also, I can't help feeling that if the allegory had been more blatant then the sub-creation aspect of the story would have been lost. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

09-03-2004, 03:37 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I’m continuing to ponder the applicability of Tolkien’s afterlife allegory. It seems especially significant to me that the purgatorial corrective is preceded by death. Now, literal death can’t be applicable to life, since it ends life, so it must apply to something else. The Biblical terminology of “dying to sin” comes to mind, or the psychological idea of letting something go. Don’t worry, I won’t begin publicly reflecting on what I need to give up in order to make way for corrective balance in my life, but I had an enlightening thought – Tolkien meant (perhaps only sub-consciously) this story to be applicable to his life! It was not primarily an allegory for a literal purgatory, though that fit in with his Catholic doctrine. But he wrote Leaf by Niggle relatively early in his life, too early to make it merely an analogy to afterlife. Otherwise he would have been wishing to die in order to gain what he thought he needed, and I don’t think that was the case. He was feeling his lack in important areas of his life and wished for a corrective influence. For those who have read Tolkien’s biography, it isn’t difficult to recognize the similarities of his and Niggle’s character traits and what was needed to balance them. So, what might he have felt he needed to give up, let go, die to, in order to gain the characteristics he felt were lacking? Niggle had to leave his unfinished painting, which was only completed (then as a reality) in the afterlife. Tolkien wrote this story during a creative crisis, being unable to finish The Lord of the Rings, Carpenter suggests in his biography. Did he think he would have to leave it uncompleted? Or did he realize that his perfectionism, like Niggle’s, stood in the way of completion? I know that he didn’t appreciate amateur psychologists who try to analyze authors in order to compare them to their works, and that is not my intention. However, I feel that we can learn from understanding what he was trying to tell himself – and his readers – here. PS - I read davem's post after writing mine - I think our thoughts are going in the same direction there. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

04-24-2007, 03:21 PM	#4
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Humpety Bumpety, in case some of the newer members have anything to apply to the topic. I'm sure Esty would be grateful, even if the rest of you Dead wouldn't be. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

04-24-2007, 04:10 PM	#5
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Hasn't the Pope just done away with Purgatory? Or is it just Limbo that's been consigned to, er, limbo? __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

04-25-2007, 02:41 AM	#6
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	The Catholic Church has down-played purgatory since Vatican II and has now dropped it completely. However, that would not have affected Tolkien's thinking. He grew up believing the erroneous idea of purgatory and would believe it still, no matter what the Pope said. He hated change. For example, he was never comfortable with the Mass in English instead of Latin. .