*Feanor,Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos*

[lindil]

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I find the last 3 paragraphs [esp. Feanor giving the Jewels to Yavanna] in IV [p.165] a very compelling end to the Legendarium although sketchily writen and placing it before the akallabeth would be problmatic I suppose it should go at the end of a 'of the rings of power and the third age' or even in a seperate appendix of it's own - if it should be kept at all.
In the past Michael M. has I think argued against keeping it, as did Saulotus. Other thoughts ?



</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 6/5/01 10:48:52 am


[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Pengolodh]

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Re: Feanor,Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos

I would keep it in both because it is so interesting and also because there is no indication too me that the Prof ever wanted to COMPLETELY abondon it.

I think that if you go with Turin returning to slay Morgoth instead of Ancalagon, you're on the right track as well. I know from experience that a lot of fans always ask questions about the second prophecy. Note that there are also tidbits in HoME 10 which you may want to incorperate.



"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

[jallanite]

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Re: Feanor,Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos

Why did Christopher Tolkien drop the Second Prophecy of Mandos?

At least two passage in Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10) indicate reasons, though they might not be the only ones.

The first is in PART THREE, THE LATER QUENTA SILMARILLION II THE SECOND PHASE, &quot;The Valaquenta&quot;, near the end, where a new &quot;Valaquenta&quot; colophon ends with the words:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.<hr></blockquote>

This is very clear, and Christopher Tolkien cleverly removed the new Valaquenta colophon to replace the second prophesy of Mandos in Quenta Silmarillion, only changing the words &quot; The Valaquenta&quot; to &quot;The SILMARILLION&quot;.

The second passage is in PART FOUR, ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH, in Note 7:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin;^19 it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition.

19***'The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion': in so far as the reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V.333, §§31-2), the Prophecy of Mandos.<hr></blockquote>

So the so-called &quot;Second Prophecy of Mandos&quot; then is no longer considered an authentic Elvish text.

Yet the actual work known as The Silmarillion still ends with it. And perhaps should still continue to end with it, even if it is not authentically Elvish.

Would it be too great a change to simply add a few words before the beginning of the prophesy marking it as a note? For example:<blockquote>Quote:<hr> It was said after in Númenor:

*****Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the ....<hr></blockquote>





</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 6/6/01 4:03:03 pm

[lindil]

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Re: Feanor,Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos

I agree in that it would no longer be possible to use it w/out comment in the light of the Valaquenta colophon.

I see no problem w/ using some of the Athrabeth notes [or others dealing w/ the numenorean-elvish divergant traditions] to preface the last few paragraphs as numenorean.

I noted yesterday that the same 3 paragraphs were again used in V in the last ending earendil section. so it can be dated as acceptable text by JRRT at roughly the same period as the final prose Beren and Luthien.
pretty decent pedigree, esp w/ he clause relating to numnor thrown in .
now the only question would be where in the covers of a 'Silmarillion ' it would go. At the end of the tale of Earendil and the destruction of Angband, prior to Numenor and the 3rd age material or at the end of the 3rd age and the rings of power?




Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on yet a 2nd new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://pub72.ezboard.com/bosanwe" >Osanwe</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

[Voronwe]

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Re: Feanor,Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos

I'd like to see the Second Prophecy included, although since I've not read the relevant sections in War of the Jewels I can't really comment on Tolkien's later views on it.

But as to where it should be placed, VI indicates that the Prophecy itself was spoken after Fionwe's (Eonwe's) return to Valinor, so if you want things in chronological order then the best place would be after the Tale of Earendil. On the other hand, I think the Prophecy, if it's included, would be a very fitting end to the entire work.


-Voronwë
<font size="2">Down the sunlit breath of Day's fiery death
He sped from Westerland.</p>

[Aiwendil]

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Feanor,Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos

I also agree that it should be included. My suggestion would be to put it at the end of the first age, as it is in V; I don't think there's really anything to suggest it has to go at the end of the history.

One problem, though: While the part about Turin coming back and killing Morgoth should be fine, the part in HoMe (IV or V?) about Feanor returning the Silmarils to Yavanna, the mountains of Valinor being levelled, etc., disagrees with the later cosmology: that the world was made round, and (more importantly) that Valinor sort of disappeared into its own universe (or at least became inaccessible physically to the rest of the world).

</p>

[Tar Elenion]

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Re: Feanor,Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos

The major problem with Turin returning and slaying Morgoth is that Turin was a Man who had already died, the only example of a Man returning from death is Beren which was only shortly after his death before his actual 'seeking elsewhither' (before he had departed from Mandos and left the Circles of the World), and was allowed only by a direct act of Eru. Turin would have long since 'sought elsewhere' (left the Circles of the World). The other problem is that Turin becomes a 'god' (along with Nienor) after this. These may be why JRRT abandoned the Second Prophecy (or this portion of it), and thought of replacing it with Turin returning at the end of the First Age and then slaying the Great Dragon and then 'seeking elsewhither'.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

[Pengolodh]

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...

Quote Aiwendil

One problem, though: While the part about Turin coming back and killing Morgoth should be fine, the part in HoMe (IV or V?) about Feanor returning the Silmarils to Yavanna, the mountains of Valinor being levelled, etc., disagrees with the later cosmology: that the world was made round, and (more importantly) that Valinor sort of disappeared into its own universe (or at least became inaccessible physically to the rest of the world).

Why exactly is Feanor returning the Silmarils to Yavanna Palurien a problem? They can still be used to rekindle the Trees for Valinor. Or are you referring to teh fact that Valinor's Trees would no longer change the world of M-e?

</p>

[Aiwendil]

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Feanor,Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos

That is indeed to what I was referring. The whole idea, as I see it, is that the Trees are rekindled, and their light is now allowed to go out across Middle-earth, rather than being confined to Valinor. This is basicly the coming of a new blissful era for Arda. To have this happen to a Valinor that's completely isolated from the rest of the Earth makes it seem almost irrelevant; nice for the Elves I suppose, but meaningless to humans and definitely not the dawn of a new era. In post LotR writings, the Dagor Dagorath (or, at any rate, the end of the world) was supposed to usher in the time of Arda Healed.

Thinking on this further, I think I'm beginning to see more of a problem with it rather than less. One other point I don't think anyone's mentioned: in the Athrabeth, Tolkien basicly establishes that the role of humans is ultimately to heal the hurts of Morgoth and thus allow the marring to be amended and Arda Healed to begin. He also establishes that Iluvatar will at some point physically inhabit Arda, and that this physical habitation will be another part of the Healing. From his point of view, he probably thought of this as a foreshadowing of Christ; and considering that he allowed that much overt Christianity into the legendarium here, he most likely meant that the messiah would return at the end of the world (Arda Marred) and help create Arda Healed. I find it hard to reconcile that with the Turin prophecy.

I do sincerely want to keep the prophecy, but I think now that there are certain problems that will have to be worked out if we are to do that.

</p>

[jallanite]

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Re: Feanor,Turin and the Second Prophecy of Mandos

We have three different traditions:

*****1. That of the Quenta Silmarillion which ends with the story some tell of Morgoth sometimes surmounting the walls and then continues with the supposed second prophecy of Mandos.

*****2. That of the &quot;Valaquenta&quot; which denies any prophecy concerning amending the Marring of Arda. This statement at the end of the &quot;Valaquenta&quot; was moved by Christopher Tolkien to the end of the Quenta Silmarillion replacing tradition 1 above.

*****3. The tradition in &quot;Myths Transformed&quot; material, including &quot;Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth&quot;, which speaks of Elvish estel 'hope, belief, faith' in some kind of healing of Arda or creation of a new Arda, speculates in &quot;Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth&quot; about what might happen, and identifies Quenta Silmarillion as a legendary document containing garbled traditions of Men, including the second prophecy of Mandos. &quot;Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth&quot; in particular is philosophical speculation, and so presented.

We do not have to bring a possibly spurious prophecy and Elvish speculation into agreement at all. The Second Prophecy of Mandos simply occurs at the end of a work called Quenta Silmarillion as in the versions Christopher Tolkien worked with. It might, as I suggested in a previous post, be better with a note indicating that this final detail is Númenorean tradition. But maybe not. The purpose of this project is generally to produce a Myths Untransformed version of the work, in which the Sun was created just before the wakening of Men, the planet Venus is actually a Númenorean ancestor in a ship, and the world was really flat before Númenor foundered.

Tradition 2 does not deny the Elvish beliefs or speculations of tradition 3, but points out they have, so the writer believes, no basis in any authentic revelation of Manwë, Varda, or Mandos. Finrod would probably agree. He knows the Ainulindalë through some sort of revelation from the Valar, but most of his beliefs and thoughts are from reason and pondering and general Elvish philosophy. That seems to be true in general of Elvish beliefs of this kind. Even the Valar did not know all, and about the ultimate fates of Children of Ilúvatar they seem to have known very little.

Note also, the actual discussion in the &quot;Athrabeth&quot; would have taken place long before the Second Prophecy of Mandos was proclaimed. So Finrod and Athrebeth would certainly not know it, even if it were a true prophecy. And it might be true, simply unknown to or disbelieved by the Elves responsible for traditions 2 and 3.

Rather oddly, in a endnote 17 to &quot;The Problem of Ros&quot; in The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), a prophecy of the Last Battle and Túrin's return from the Dead is actually ascribed to Andreth herself, though she would have been dead long before Húrin's birth, much more Túrin's.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000212>jallanit e</A> at: 6/18/01 9:41:19 pm

[Mhoram]

Why exactly is Feanor returning the Silmarils to Yavanna Palurien a problem? They can still be used to rekindle the Trees for Valinor. Or are you referring to teh fact that Valinor's Trees would no longer change the world of M-e?

"Yet had I but a little of that light I could recall life to the Trees, ere their roots decay; and then our hurt should be healed, and the malice of Melkor be confounded." -Yavanna before the Valar around the Ring of Doom.

I suppose we don't know how long it would take for the roots to decay, but I had assumed it wouldn't be too long. When Earendil brought the Silmaril to them, wouldn't they have used it to heal the Trees if they still could?

Also, my copy of the Silmarilion says thus:

"but their joy in victory was diminished, for they returned without the Silmarils from Morgoth's crown, and they knew that those jewels could not be found of brought together again unless the world be broken and remade." - Of The Voyage Of Earendil, Silmarilion

How is it then that Feanor was supposed to have the Silmarils to give to Yavanna? Could you point me to the text?

Lately i'm beginning to see the dire need for a canon, if everyone who wants his questions answered has to read all the writings of the Legendarium throughout Tolkien's life and decide which to keep and which not, he may never rest.

[Mithadan]

The Second Prophecy holds that after the Final Battle, the Silmarils will be recovered and Feanor, emerging from Mandos at last will give them to Yavanna. The Second Prophecy's ancestor is the Faring Forth story from Lost Tales which actually has a bad ending, at least for the Elves. The Second Prophecy is primarily a case of people believing that JRRT edited by ommission. Versions of it are facially inconsistent with JRRT's mythos, such as Turin slaying Morgoth. If Men pass outside of Arda/Ea at death, then how can Turin return? Of course there may be several explanations for this which would be speculation at best. I have always liked the Second Prophecy and am not entirely convinced that JRRT intended to discard it.

[Mhoram]

I think it should be included, but only in an appendix. Due to the fact that it isn't clear whether or not tolkien would have kept it, and also that it so obviously conflicts the published Silmarilion account about the End. Let it be in an appendix with the last couple of versions, Turin slays Morgoth vs. Turin slays Ancalagon, and etc. Give some commentary on where it comes from and when, and about the change CT made to the Silmarilion concerning the End.

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

[Mhoram]

Came across this a few minutes ago:

In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate,(7) and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

7. Added here in pencil: coming from the halls of Mandos

Doesn't the fact that Tolkien specifically reinterated the meaning of Turambar here show that he had planned all along that Turin would would escape the Gift/Doom of Men?

Sadly, he didn't explain how this was accomplished, but atleast he did take the Gift/Doom of Men into account.

After realizing this i'm a bigger fan of the 2nd Prophecy.

[Mhoram]

17. The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue be heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Turin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.
[This remarkable saying has long roots, extending back to the
prophecy at the end of the old Tale of Turambar (II.115-16),
where it was told that the Gods of Death (Fui and Vefantur)
would not open their doors to Turin and Nienori, that Urin and
Mavwin (Hurin and Morwen) went to Mandos, and that their prayers
came even to Manwe, and the Gods had mercy on their un-
happy fate, so that those twain Turin and Nienori entered into
Fos'Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi and her maidens
had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, and so
were all their sorrows and stains washed away, and they dwelt
as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now the love of
that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar indeed shall
stand beside Fionwe in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his
drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil.
In the Sketch of the Mythology or 'earliest Silmarillion' of the
1920s the prophecy with which it ends (IV.40) declares that when
Morgoth returns, and 'the last battle of all' is fought,
Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the
spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with
his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of
Hurin shall be avenged.
The development of this in the Quenta (IV.165) tells that in the
day of the last battle, on the fields of Valinor,
Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand
Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin,
Conqueror of Fate; and it shall be the black sword of Turin
that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the
children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.
And the final passage of the Quenta, concerning the prophecy of
the recovery of the Two Trees, ends with the words (ibid.):
But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin
only, and him it names among the Gods.
These passages reappear in the revised conclusion of the Quenta
that belongs with the Quenta Silmarillion of 1937 (see V.323-4,
333), with two changes: Turin in the Last Battle is said to be
'coming from the halls of Mandos', and in the final sentence
concerning the prophecy 'no Man it names, save Turin only, and
to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.' In the cursory
corrections that my father made much later to this conclusion
(see XI.245-7) he changed 'Turin ... coming from the halls of
Mandos' to 'Turin ... returning from the Doom of Men at the
ending of the world*, and against the concluding passage (in-
cluding the reference to Turin as 'a son of the Valar') he placed a
large X.
Another reference is found in the Annals of Aman (X.71, 76),
where it is said of the constellation Menelmakar (Orion) that it
'was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world,
and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of
Days.'
In this last reappearance of the mysterious and fluctuating idea
the prophecy is put into the mouth of Andreth, the Wise-woman
of the House of Beor: Turin will 'return from the Dead' before his
final departure, and his last deed within the Circles of the World
will be the slaying of the Great Dragon, Ancalagon the Black.
Andreth prophesies of the Last Battle at the end of the Elder Days
(the sense in which the term 'Last Battle' is used shortly after-
wards in this text, p. 371); but in all the early texts (the Quenta,
IV.160; the Annals of Beleriand, IV.309, V.144; the Quenta
Silmarillion, V.329) it was Earendil who destroyed Ancalagon.]

-HoME XII, Part 2, The Problem of Ros

[Aiwendil]

I think the consensus is that we can't use the version with Turin coming back to slay Ancalagon, since it contradicts all versions of the War of Wrath that we have. It's one of the projected changes that we have to dismiss, like the round earth change.

[Joy]

Guys, this is my first time posting over here and I am a little (well, actually at lot)intimidated, as I do not have the knowledge that you all do.

As I have been reading the posts on this thread, a few things have come to my mind (scary!).

From Aiwendil

He also establishes that Iluvatar will at some point physically inhabit Arda, and that this physical habitation will be another part of the Healing. From his point of view, he probably thought of this as a foreshadowing of Christ; and considering that he allowed that much overt Christianity into the legendarium here, he most likely meant that the messiah would return at the end of the world (Arda Marred) and help create Arda Healed. I find it hard to reconcile that with the Turin prophecy.

I might be one of the few that sees this as a possiblity.

From Mhoram

In the Sketch of the Mythology or 'earliest Silmarillion' of the
1920s the prophecy with which it ends (IV.40) declares that when
Morgoth returns, and 'the last battle of all' is fought, Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Hurin shall be avenged.

It states that the spirit of Turin shall be beside him.

Knowing that Tolkien was a devout Catholic, he knew the Scriptures that state John the Baptist would come in the spirit and power of Elias. Could Tolkien have written this as "one upon whom the spirit of Turin rests." If so, then this would allow for the incarnation of Iluvatar into ME to heal it.

Also from Mho

Another reference is found in the Annals of Aman (X.71, 76),
where it is said of the constellation Menelmakar (Orion) that it 'was a sign of Turin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days.'

To the Elves, this constellation (Orion) had huge symbolic importance, representing an eternal guardian of the World. In the oldest tradition, The Lost Tales, Menelvagor is the enemy of the exiled Melkor, protecting Arda from his return - Taken from Encyclopedia of Arda. Also, please take a look at this web site on Orion in Christian thought.

On another note, could Menelvagor represent Oromë, since he is the Huntsman of the Valar? Tolkien states that he delights in hounds. If you look at Orion, you can see Canis Minor and Canis Major at his feet, these are the "Little Dog" and "The Greater Dog."

In one version of Tolkien's work, Ursa Major (Sirius) is Helluin, who followed Telimektar, Tulkas's son. In this version, it is stated that Telimektar became Menelmakar or Menelvagor. Could Tolkien have been playing with the idea of Tulkas being represented as Orion (Mengelvagor), given this phrase in the 2nd prophecy of Mandos,

In that day, Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwë, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the Black Sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Also, the Wain (Valacirca), Ursa Major (Big Dipper), is called the Sickle of the Valar. If you note it's postion in the sky, it looks to be receiving Draco, the Dragon, into it's cup.


Sorry for such a long reply, I was searching some of my info out as I was posting.

[lindil]

Welcome to the New Silm Forum Joy.

I am dashing out the door so I will reread your very informative post [ so don't be intimidated! ] again. but in short it see it as a conflict similar to the myth's transformed problem. And indeed it probably flows from the same internal debate w/in JRRT. At just what point do you cease trying to make a fantasy world realistic?

JRRT began to include a place for Christ, a real origin of the Sun and Moon, and now possibly a real substitution for John the baptist [ if I read it aright]. And a moving galadriel more towards a saint/Virgin Mary figure.

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Findegil]

Some thoughts on this discussion:

I can't see an contradiction for the Second Prophecy in the fact that Valinor was removed from the world. We are talking about the old concept of the world made round only by a hand stroke of Eru. He could have done in the end what ever he wanted. In addition we have the recovered Silmarils to deal with. When it is true that they could only be recovered by breaking the world, then the Arda Healed becomes a new meaning and can look like what ever you thing is needed for the Second Prophecy.

And also we should look more closely into the Ainulindalë to get deeper understandings of this myths about the end of the world. If the Second Prophecy wasn't authentic from Mandos then the only source for elvish 'estel' or mannish myths about the end of the world lay in this text.
There are two places to look. One is the end of the music:

In the midst of this strife, whereat the halls of Ilúvatar shook and a tremor ran out into the silences yet unmoved, Ilúvatar arose a third time, and his face was terrible to behold. Then he raised up both his hands, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased.

What we can read out of this, is that the final end of the Tale of Eä was a direct intervention of Eru himself.
The second place is were the Ainulidalë tends to prophecy just at the beginning:

Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in theeir part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.

Together with the statement found in the Silmarillion that only Men will take part in the Second Music and the elvish 'estel' as Finrod reveals it to Andreth, I believe this means that Arda healed as a continuation of the tale of Eä and a dwelling place for the Elves is created by the Second Music. This also agrees perfectly with the statement, that the healing would be brought about by Mankind, since they take part in the Second Music.

All this of course shouldn't be said in any way in the revised Silmarillion, but to make up or mind to a interpretation of this hints and myths may help to decide to take the Second Prophecy in or not.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: Findegil ]

[Aiwendil]

I can't see an contradiction for the Second Prophecy in the fact that Valinor was removed from the world. We are talking about the old concept of the world made round only by a hand stroke of Eru. He could have done in the end what ever he wanted.

So you suggest that the world was made flat again before the end? I suppose that could work; but note that, as the Dagor Dagorath is written, it is not Iluvatar that starts the whole thing, but Melkor. The world, it seems, would have to be flat priot to Melkor's creeping in through the Door of Night.

What we can read out of this, is that the final end of the Tale of Eä was a direct intervention of Eru himself.

That's an excellent point.

Together with the statement found in the Silmarillion that only Men will take part in the Second Music and the elvish 'estel' as Finrod reveals it to Andreth, I believe this means that Arda healed as a continuation of the tale of Eä and a dwelling place for the Elves is created by the Second Music.

Is it explicitly said that only Men will take part in the Second Music? I thought it was merely left uncertain whether or not the Elves would take part.

You've made some good observations. I think we should probably refrain from making any definite decisions, though, until we are actually editing the text.

I was recently arguing about the Dagor Dagorath with M. Martinez on his forum, and another thought occurred to me there: if we include the Second Prophecy of Mandos, should we include the corrections made to it in LQ2? The validity of that text is highly dubious; it was really merely a typed copy of the QS37 and parts of the Q30. Tolkien then went through it and made some very cursory corrections, mostly just updating the old names. He did not correct any of the actual substance of the old narratives. However, he did make some interesting corrections to the Second Prophecy of Mandos:

1. He changed 'Turin . . . coming from tha halls of Mandos' to 'Turin . . . returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world'.

2. He added the words 'and Beren Camlost' next to that sentence.

3. He placed a large X next to the last paragraph.

If we include the Second Prophecy of Mandos, we need to decide whether to keep or reject these changes.

[Findegil]

Have we a discription of the Dagor Dagorath? I thought we hadn't but, please guide me to it if I'm wrong.
When you think of the many prophecies in the Lost Tales, than I can't see wy they shouldn't work with a round world as well. My suggestion was that it might be possible that arda healed or remade was flatt and that for that reasson it was a pleasure for all that the trees were rekindled.
But as I suggested only the Elves would inhabit Arda healed, because they thought that form them embodied live was the ultimate destination and for men they thought it might be other wise.

You are right, it is not made explicit that the Elves wouldn't take part in the second music, but it is at least suggested by the text and by the Athrabeth I think.

I think the changes to LQ2 should be taken, they are in now way more contradicting then the prophecy whitout them. They were Tolkiens last thoughts about the prophecy, so I can't see a good reason for dropping them.

I agree with you that the final decision should be made when the text is edited, but the best way of a decision is cannon in this forum (I think) and that can only be reached by long discussion as it seems.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Here is a compilation of The Prophecy:
From The Book of Lost Tales II: Turambar and the Foalókë

Then Úrin departed, but would not touch the gold, and stricken in years he reached Hisilómë and died among Men, but his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men. Yet it is said that when he was dead his shade fared into the woods seeking Mavwin, and long those twain haunted the woods about the fall of Silver Bowl bewailing their children. But the Elves of Kôr have told, and they know, that at last Úrin and Mavwin fared to Mandos, and Nienóri was not there nor Túrin their son. Turambar indeed had followed Nienóri along the black pathways to the doors of Fui, but Fui would not open to them, neither would Vefántur. Yet now the prayers of Úrin and Mavwin came even to Manwë, and the Gods had mercy on their unhappy fate, so that those twain Túrin and Nienóri entered into Fôs'Almir, the bath of flame, even as Urwendi and her maidens had done in ages past before the first rising of the Sun, and so were all their sorrows and stains washed away, and they dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones, and now the love of that brother and sister is very fair; but Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil.'

Then it changed again in the Sketch of the Mythology or 'earliest Silmarillion'.
From The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Earliest Silmarillion

When the world is much older, and the Gods weary, Morgoth will come back through the Door, and the last battle of all will be fought. Fionwë will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Túrin shall be beside him; it shall be Túrin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Húrin shall be avenged.

Now we go to The Quenta. From The Shaping of Middle-Earth: The Quenta

Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Eärendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwë and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, Conqueror of Fate,7 and it shall be the black sword of Túrin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
7. Added here in pencil: coming from the halls of Mandos.

We have also a Commentary regarding this part. From The Shaping of Middle-Earth: Commentary on the Quenta

The appearance of Túrin at the end remains profoundly mysterious; and here it is said that the prophecy names him among the Gods, which is clearly to be related to the passage in the old Tale of Turambar (II. 116), where it is said that Túrin and Nienor 'dwelt as shining Valar among the blessed ones', after they had passed through Fôs' Almir, the bath of flame. In changes to the text of Q II it is said that Túrin is named among 'the songs of the Gods', rather than among the Gods, and also that he comes 'from the halls of Mandos' to the final battle; about which I can say no more than that Túrin Turambar, though a mortal Man, did not go, as do the race of Men, to a fate beyond the world.

We have also a reference of Túrin returning in the Annals. From Morgoth’s Ring: The Annals of Aman

On the two star-makings see p. 61, §24. There is here the remarkable statement that Menelmakar (Orion) was 'a sign of Túrin Turambar, who should come into the world, and a foreshowing of the Last Battle that shall be at the end of Days.' This is a reference to the Second Prophecy of Mandos

Yet in the Later Quentas, the Menelmakar, had removed as a sign of Túrin Turambar.
From Morgoth’s Ring: Later Quentas

Here the two star-makings are expressly contrasted, and Varda's names Tintallë 'the Kindler' and Elentári 'Queen of the Stars' differentiated in their bearing. The second star-making is described also in AAm§§35 - 6 (p. 71), but far more briefly, and though the 'gathering together of the ancient stars' to form signs in the heavens is mentioned there also, only the constellations Menelmakar (Orion) and Valakirka are named. That Menelmakar forebodes the Last Battle is said in both sources, but LQ does not name it as a sign of Túrin Turambar.

Now we come to an interesting change in the philosophy of The Silmarillion, when it changes from being made from an elvish perspective to a mannish one.
From Morgoth’s Ring: Myths Transformed

What we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions ... handed on by Men in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back - from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar in Beleriand - blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas.

And then he have this piece from The Peoples of Middle-Earth: The Problem of Ros

17. The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue be heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Túrin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke.

So we see the change that have taken place among the place of Túrin in the Second Prophecy of Mandos.
First he was made to come back from the dead and slay Morgoth with his black sword, then that conception changed to slaying Ancalagon the Black. The question that arises is can this prophecy be accounted as true?
From Morgoth’s Ring: The Valaquenta

Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.

If Manwë and Varda may know, but have not revealed what would happen in the end of Arda, and Mandos has not declared it, how can The Second Prophecy of Mandos be true then? We have also this little bit.
From Morgoth’s Ring: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth, Note 7

It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin;19 it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition. All Elvish traditions are presented as 'histories', or as accounts of what once was.

So, it seems clear that the Prophecy of Mandos, (at least the part awarded to Andreth), is a revelation given to her, but if the Eldar had no knowledge of the end, how could she know? Was it foreknowledge?
It is interesting to notice how the idea changed in the different stages of the legendarium.

[Finwe]

Since the prophecy is considered a Numenorean compilation, could it not be that it was crafted by them to prove that Men were destined to do great things? I know this is a bit of a far-fetched claim, but hear me out. We don't know which "group" of the Numenoreans put that legend together. Logically speaking, it would be the Elendili, but what if it was the King's Men? They believed that it was their task to finish what Earendil "started," to set foot on Aman. Why would they not surreptitiously use one of the greatest heroes of the Edain to prove their own point? It sounds like a conspiracy theory, but it could forever "subvert" tales, and show that Men were, after all, good for something. Turin "coming back" to slay Morgoth would be exactly the type of legend that the King's Men would have loved, a case of a Man doing something that an Elf, or even a Vala, could not.

EDIT: I realize that this sounds like a nonsensical conspiracy theory post, but it could have been possible.

[ July 14, 2003: Message edited by: Finwe ]

[Findegil]

At first hand I wanted to bump this thread up, which is done here with.

As fare as the discussion had come, I can't still see no good reason to skip the prophecy completly. What does contradict the meassage it brings? And if we have such contradictions, we know that these could be caused be differend traditions.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

As I now see it, the only two good arguments against including the second prophecy of Mandos are:

1. It contradicts the passage at the end of the Valaquenta
2. It is no longer workable once the Change of the World element is worked in (because the world is then no longer flat).

Findegil wrote:

And if we have such contradictions, we know that these could be caused be differend traditions.

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I am wary of taking the easy way out and ascribing all contradictions to "different traditions" - especially since what we are constructing, at least for the Quenta Silmarillion portion, is not supposed to be an actual document but rather a pure narrative - a true account of events.

However, there does seem to be good reason in this case to explain away problem 1 with the "different traditions" bit, since in the Athrabeth note Tolkien sets that precedent. I'd say this allows us to append a second prophecy, as long as we preface it by saying that it is a Mannish myth (otherwise we are saying that it is "canonical" - i.e., true within Arda).

But I still have trouble with problem 2. In the old version, it was essential that the Silmarils were recovered and used to restore the Trees, and the mountains of Valinor were levelled so that their light shown out across Middle-earth. I don't see how this can be retained if the world is now round, and Valinor is not on it.

[Findegil]

I see two way to deal with the round earth problem and the Second Prophecy:
1. As we are working with a flat earth version of the legendarium, we can arrgue that the reproters of the Prophecy are the Númenórens which believed that the true shape of Arda was flat even after the Drowning, and that the true West was still there even if no longer physicaly reachable. Since the light of the trees was associated with the bliss of Valinor, the effect it could have would anyway be more on a psychological level than on physical one. Thus if from the true West the light shines out over the now round earth it would create the bliss the Númenóreans long for, especialy in the north-west were the staright way approached, equally if you can see it physically or not.
2. Earlier in this thread I argued, that the time adressed by the Phrophecy concerning Fëanor is after the Dagor Dagorath and deals with Arda healed and not with Arda marred. Since in the Dagor Dagorath Arda marred would be destroyed, I would think that Arda healed or re-made would be a revival of the flat world of old, since that was clearly nearer to the first thoughts of Iluvatar, which anybody would then understand and interpret in the second music in which Arda re-made would take shape. In such a scenario it would be an act of redemption on Maedhros side to lay aside his ruthless claim on the Silmarillis and give them to Yavanna. And for Fëanor it wouuld be the uttermost redemption to lay hands on his own creation an break them for the benefit of all the inhabitains of Arda re-made.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

It seems to be my lot to bump this thread up again.
My re-read had brought forth some observations:

- In my last post I brought in Maedhros as the one how brought the Silmarils to Yavanna. This is clearly outdated since it is based on the S were Feanor palyed no part.

- Im my editing for the VE I toke the part of "the doom of men" and the deletion in the last §§, but I did not take up the addition of Beren. This was only by accident not by intention. It will be emanded in the Version below.

- Also we have as jet not done any editing to bring in the numenorean origin or tradition of the prophecey. I will try that out below.

- Further Aiwendil had complains about the end of the Valaquenta. When I am right we had as jet taken the Valaquenta we produced as the document in Middle-Earth. That would give us a way out of the trouble here: If the Valaquenta was produced in the First Age by some Elf, he would have had no knowledge of the Second Prophecy. Thus an Elf like Finrod would have no legend of the End of the world as is stated in the Valaquenta. On the other hand if the Valaquenta is contardictory to the second Phorphecy it is even stronger against the Ainulindale since there we have also a legend of the end of the world, and against the Athrabeth were such a legend is more or less developed by Finrod.

So fare, what I remeber of my re-read. Here is the Version of the Phrophecy That I would use:

VE-21 The Second Prophecy of Mandos
{Thus spake }Mandos[ spake] in prophecy, when the {Gods}[Valar] sat in judgement in Valinor, and {the}[this] rumour of his words was whispered among all the {Elves}[Men] of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But {Eärendel} [Eärendil] shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eönwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, and Beren Camlost, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for {Eärendel} [Eärendil] shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Kementári; and he will break them and with their fire Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. {In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.}

I changed the first § bring it accordance with the statment that the tardition was of manish origin with as small as change as I could think of.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Findegil proposed:

{Thus spake }Mandos[ spake] in prophecy, when the {Gods}[Valar] sat in judgement in Valinor, and {the}[this] rumour of his words was whispered among all the {Elves}[Men] of the West.

The problem with this is that we are still stating that Mandos said these things, regardless of whether we then say that his words are remembered by Elves or by Men. What is needed is a change so that we say only that it is said by some Men that he spoke this prophecy.

One way is to preface the whole thing with a completely fabricated statement of the sort: "Among Men a tale is told of the Second Prophecy of Mandos, and that tale is here given." I don't really like that, as it is, again, a complete fabrication. Another way, very similar, would be to replace the first sentence: "It is said by some Men that Mandos spake thus in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor." However, we still have a problem with excessive creative writing.

Incidentally, I don't see the point of the deletion of "thus spake" and replacement with "spake" in your revision.

[Maédhros]

From the Later Quentas

Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.

The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V.333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255).

The question for me is does this means that the Prophecy actually dissapears from the Legendarium or only in the lore of the Elves.
As it has been posted before, there were prophecies by mannish traditions regarding the end.

One way is to preface the whole thing with a completely fabricated statement of the sort: "Among Men a tale is told of the Second Prophecy of Mandos, and that tale is here given." I don't really like that, as it is, again, a complete fabrication. Another way, very similar, would be to replace the first sentence: "It is said by some Men that Mandos spake thus in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor." However, we still have a problem with excessive creative writing.

With the risk involved in this, I would favor not using the Prophecy, unless both of you think that an alteration of the kind that Aiwendil made is acceptable.

[Findegil]

The motivation of my editing the fisrt sentence was ecaxtly to get the tradtion of the pophecy a manish one. In the original text the it is stated that the words reported are the what Mandos said ("Thus spake Mandos ..."). In contarst to this my version reports only that this is what the Man of the West remembered about the second Phrophecy ("... this rumour of his words was whispered among all the Men of the West").
I must addmiss that this is very fine spun. But I think it does work as well as any created text that could only make the same thing. We have only this version of the phrphecy and since it is reported by man it is doubtfull. So how can it be more doubtfull than being a romour whispersed about men?

Or is your point that we still report as a fact that Mandos gave some Phrophecy what so ever at this occasion? If that is the case we need some intorduction other than I have tried to give.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Findegil: Your version would begin:

Mandos spake in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor, and this rumour of his words was whispered among all the Men of the West.

This has exactly the same meaning as:

Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Valar sat in judgement in Valinor, and this rumour of his words was whispered among all the Men of the West.

So in this version Mandos definitely speaks a prophecy; and what follows is in fact the rumour of his words that is whispered among Men.

What we need is a version where according to Men Mandos spoke this prophecy.

[Findegil]

Okay, it is eacxtly what I feared, you would not only like to make the content of Prophecy dubious but also the fact that it was uttered at all. But I still think we should use the first sentece for that an rebulid it to give the meaning we want:
Forum formated:

VE-21 The Second Prophecy of Mandos
A <BT rumour{ of his words} was whispered among all the {Elves}[Men] of the West>, that{Thus spake} Mandos [spoke this words ]in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor{, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West}. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, ...

Plain text:

VE-21 The Second Prophecy of Mandos
A rumour was whispered among all the Men of the West, that Mandos spoke this words in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, ...

Does that do the trick?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Fingolfin II]

Nice little addendum, Findegil.

You said:

VE-21 The Second Prophecy of Mandos
A rumour was whispered among all the Men of the West, that Mandos spoke this words in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, ...

But I was wondering, would all the Men of the West know about the rumour of the prophecy of Mandos, or just the Numenoreans? You're probably talking about the Numenoreans when you say all Men of the West, but it could also be perceived to be all the 'good' Edain, and some stayed in Middle-Earth. A proposed way to overcome this I think is to get rid of the 'all' so then we simply have-

VE-21 The Second Prophecy of Mandos
A rumour was whispered among the Men (or Elves?) of the West, that Mandos spoke these words in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor. When the world is old...

[Findegil]

I would be possible to skip the "all" but, in the original it were all Elves of the West which would incloud all those that lingered still in Middle-Earth. Thus in the original the knowledge was not restricted from Middle-Earth and I would not do so in our version. We have in addition not in any way made clear to which date the Words reffer. Thus it could reffer to the later ages when Numenor was no more. With all that I can't seen a forcing reason to restrit the rumor to the numenorens by skiping "all".

I don't understand what you would like to suggest with the addition of "(or Elves?)".

Respectfully
Findegil

[Fingolfin II]

The (or Elves?) bit was just because I'm unsure about whether the prophecy will be rumoured amongst Men, or the Elves of Tol Eressea.

[Findegil]

That is clearly not the case. As discussed above, if we want to hold the prophecy at all, we must make it a manish tradition.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

I would be possible to skip the "all" but, in the original it were all Elves of the West which would incloud all those that lingered still in Middle-Earth. Thus in the original the knowledge was not restricted from Middle-Earth and I would not do so in our version. We have in addition not in any way made clear to which date the Words reffer. Thus it could reffer to the later ages when Numenor was no more. With all that I can't seen a forcing reason to restrit the rumor to the numenorens by skiping "all".

I would skip the all just based on the fact that by not saying all, we are not saying per se that it was not know to all Men, that is left ambiguous.
And besides that it could be argued that there were different traditions among Men because of the fact of the different Houses of Men that established themselves in Númenor.
From Morgoth's Ring: Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

Another wise-woman, though of a different House and different tradition, was Adanel sister of Hador. She married Belemir of the House of Bëor, grandson of Belen second son of Bëor the Old, to whom the wisdom of Bëor (for Bëor himself had been one of the wise) was chiefly transmitted. And there had been great love between Belemir and Andreth his younger kinswoman (the daughter of his second cousin Boromir), and she dwelt long in his house, and so learned much of the lore also of the 'people of Marach' and the House of Hador from Adanel.

Good to have you aboard Fingolfin II.

[Findegil]

After some thought about it, I must admiss that my repley was bit to much counter-argumentation. It is clearly reasonable to skip the "all". The cause for it is to be unspecific and that is desireable all the way. Thus if nobody will step up for it the "all" is gone. But I would like to point out that this should still not restrict the meaning to the Numenoreans as the only who know about the prophecy.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I have no problem with:

A <BT rumour {of his words} was whispered among the {Elves}[Men] of the West>, that thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor {, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West}. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, ...

I removed "all". Also, I don't see a pressing need to replace "thus spake" with "spoke these words". Does anyone think that "thus spake" is awkward now that it is prefaced?

[Maédhros]

Well, I have no problem with that Aiwendil. If Findegil is ok with this too, does that mean that we are finished with the Voyage of Eärendil?