**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[Maédhros]

FD-SL-06 We must contrive some way for Húrin and the Outlaws to pass the girdle of Melian. At least they can not reach the doors of Menegroth unforeseen, as it is in the text of TT.

Ever since our last discussion of the Ruin of Doriath, I have thinked about this and I think that there is a simple way to do this. We can move the scene that Húrin and the Outlaws reached the doors of Menegroth and change it so that they reached some outside part of the Girdle of Melian and that they are transported into Menegroth. That change would involved minimal editorial alterations by our part.

FD-SL-08 - Was there a fight between them and the Elves? Probably not since that seemed the reason for the change in Q30 in which the Outlaws were removed completely.
FD-SL-09 - Did They take a part of the treasure out of Menegroth? The Asgon Party would probably not take any part of the treasure, but we are not so sure of Ragnir and the later two sub-groups discussed above. It might be best to be ambiguous in this point, but in a way that must allow some part of the treasure to be taken.
FD-SL-10 - What was their final fate or how could they overcome the cruse of Mîm? Meadhros argument that the cruse could not be laid aside by a more or less forced separating from the gold is valid. I think we must add some info on the fate of the outlaws that is ambiguous enough to be not a fan-fic but makes clear that they did (at least not all) overcome the cruse. It might be hard to work this out, but it seems to me really needed.

I still think that as Aiwendil suggest way back and CT did is that it would be best for us not remove that battle.
As for the treasure, I would make them take some bits of it as Thingol offered in the Tale.
I tried to make ambiguous the fate of the outlaws in my latest draft.

.} [Now though] {D}[d]oughty were those outlaws and great wielders of sword and axe from their warfare with Orcs [, they departed from Doriath, fearing the strength of Menegroth. About the fate of the outlaws, no tales tells, yet it is said by some that the curse came upon them, and they died or were slained in quarrels upon the road].

FD-SL-11 The next step is Thingols engagement with the Dwarves. Since the later Thingol was already rich the question must be answered why he lured for the hoard. Was he so easily overcome by Mîm’s cruse? In TN he was reluctant at first and was dragged to it by Ufedhin. I think that we need some one in Ufedhins role her to urge Thingol not to follow Melains counsel. And if we use such a role here, we might take that role also to suggest the engagement of the Dwarves.

I entirely disagree with this. We have already a precedent in the Of Beren and Lúthien story that Thingol is able by himself to disregard the counsel of his wife Melian, and besides using a character such as Ufedhin who would be a true traitor, even bigger than what Maeglin was in the Fall of Gondolin and to have no real background of him besides even JRRT wrote this:

Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.

It would have been very simple for JRRT to simply return to the old story of using a traitor in there but he didn't, and I think that we cannot either.

FD-SL-12 The transporting of half the hoard to Nogord as in TN is out of question, thus the Dwarves most come to Menegroth and smith the gold there. But TN has one great advantage that was never gainsaid later but also never clearly used: the contract between Thingol and the Dwarves is never really set. Both sides do not ask the exact conditions they work under. Thus the trouble that awakes is here already sown.

I think that we are forgetting one very important point in here. The gold that we are talking about here as in the Tale of the Nauglafring was the gold of the simple Rodothlim that were in no way comparable as to the later Ñoldor of Nargothrond. Remember that in the Tale the gold was not worked but it would seem to me unthinkable that the horde of Nargothrond under Finrod Felagund would be in such state. I'm not really sure how much worked that gold would need. To me it would be very beautiful pieces of gold.
Such a great worked gold would definitely would make Thingol think twice before throwing it away.
Perhaps this could work into our advantage in that the dwarves were only summoned to make the Nauglamír and some other little smitting of the gold. And the quarrel of the dwarves and Thingol is to be because of differences in the amount of gold that Thingol is to paid them and we would cut the other types of payment that the dwarves wanted from the Tale.

I will comment on the rest of it later.

[Maédhros]

As we are given not much evidence at all what happened after the work of the Dwarves was finished, we can only conclude that:
FD-SL-14 - The Dwarves already plant treasury.

What is plant treasury?

FD-SL-15 - Thingol scanted his promised reward.
FD-SL-16 - The Dwarves were driven away.
FD-SL-17 Further we have to decide if there was a battle between the dwarves and the elves. Q30 has such a battle. But we have to take into account the blame of the Dwarves against the Elves in The Hobbit:
Quote:
“… In ancient days they [the Woodelves] had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bar- gained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay. …”

I think we must skip the battle or at least no Dwarf should be slain therein, since otherwise the Dwarves would blame the Elves to have killed their kin without justice. But can we think of a battle were Elves were slain and the Dwarves only driven away? Properly yes, but why should the grave of the slain Elves be call “the Mound of Avarice”?
In my view the battle has to go. There was “Thingols quarrel with the Dwarves” and the Dwarves were driven away without a fitting payment.

I see no reason as to not have a battle between the dwarves and the Elves of Doriath. It can be seen that there was a quarrel between the Elves and dwarves that ended up in a battle between them. It seems perfectly logical thinking about the curse of the gold.

FD-SL-18 The plotting of revenge that the Dwarves of Nogrod made must be without the Dwarves of Belegost following the material in Unfinished Tales and it is the savviest way to skip the Orks TN as well. Thus the only fighting forces were the Dwarves of Nogrod. FD-SL-19 But I think that the message about Mîms death during the taking of the treasure from Nargothrond cold be used. It would add some new wrath to hearts of the Dwarves.

Agree on this.

FD-SL-20 Treachery of some Elves should be included in the plot, since it was prominent in the early plot and would add plausibility to the later idea. If we don’t want to add fan-fictional elements the plot could only deal with the writings given. Thus Naugladur must gain knowledge of the traditional hunt by treachery and use this occasion to his advantage.

I don't think that treachery of the elves should be used, instead I would use the idea of Naugladur would know about the hunt. I mean the dwarves had already worked in Menegroth before and it is very plausible that they would know about certain customs in Menegroth, as the hunt.

FD-SL-21 Beyond that we only have: “Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.” We could skip the part “or induced to go to war beyond his borders” when we use the scene with the traditional wolf-hunt but we should not invent further details of how it was contrived.
FD-SL-22 Further details of the killing of Thingol could be added since it is most likely that he and Mablung behaved brave during the fight and were the last to die and that Naugladur did not risk a direct confrontation. But it is thinkable that he meddled with the dead body of Thingol (at least to fetch the Silmaril). And “the head on a pole” is attested for Dwarves that look for revenge (see the treatment with Azog after the battle of Azanulbizar).

Using the hunt is the way that Thingol is killed outside his borders. I agree on the further details part.

FD-SL-23 In all versions of JRR Tolkien Melian played a part in the story after the death of Thingol. She mostly is seen as escaping the Dwarves and bringing the message of the first ruin of Doriath to Beren and Luthien. And later she seems to play a part in the resurrection of Doriath at least in welcoming Dior to the realm. But I think that this parts have to go. The above given quote is all we have concerning the way the girdle of Melian was passed by the hostile army of the Dwarves. And I think that we have to take it literal. Thingol is “slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs”. What a state of mind could we contrive for her to remove the girdle so that the Elves of Doriath could be killed in heaps and than go to Beren and tell him about it which would clearly led him to revenge the death of Thingol? Or are we really going to tell that she wandered witless and found Lúthien by mere luck? That would be thinkable, but not very likely. It is to long a way from Menegroth to Tol Galen for a witless wandering even for a Maiar to reach Beren in time. We even have to ask if she was smart enough to send a message to Beren and Lúthien.
I think that it would be savviest to let her go at once after Thingols death. The message to Beren and Lúthien could be made anonym or maybe send by some servant who got wind of the events by talking to Melian while she felt the death of Thingol (Nielthi in TN).

Again, I completely disagree.

Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.

When Thingol is killed we can follow the TN where Melian feels that her husband is dead, her power of the Girdle is gone, she fleds to find her daughter. JRRT quote doesn't necessarily mean that Melian willingly removed the girdle but as CT imply in his version, that her power over it was gone, and that is why she fled. As to call her witless after such an event is to me unthinkable. Why wouldn't a maiar like her, who had not the restrictions that the later Istari had, would not be able to find her own daughter? I don't see any pressing evidence as to why Melian should not be the messenger.

FD-SL-24 Berens fight with the Dwarves and the part taken by the Green-Elves and the Ents was Christopher Tolkiens way to deal with Letter no. 247 of 1963 and I think we should retain his plot here but possibly add some details of the fight from TN.

I think that this works very good. I would not dismiss the green elves either.

FD-SL-26 The fight of Beren and Naugladur is well told in TN and as jet I can’t see any reason not to use it.

I think that it should be used.

FD-SL-27 It remains one critical point: How did the gold come into the River Ascar? In TN the Ascar was the name of the later Gelion and then in some later accounts the ford was changed to led over the River Ascar and Gelion after there amalgamation (see the eastward extension of the first Silmarllion map). But in the second Silmarllion Map the Dwarf-road led north of the River Ascar into mountains and Sarn athrad is again the ford over Gelion. Thus we can not use the picture of TN were the treasure was cast in the river by the Dwarves when they take to flight or fell in to the river when the dwarves who bore it were killed. The Elves must have removed it actively to the river Ascar und flung it into that river. We have to introduce that to our text.

I had not thought of that. Good point.

FD-SL-28 The description of Lúthien wearing the Nauglamir is similar in many accounts. We can choose here the latest and add maybe some details of wording if we like.

FD-SL-29 Dior is in TY seen as leaving Tol Galen soon after the Battle of Sarn Athrad. And the description of his family would also come in here at best.

FD-SL-30 The message of second death of Beren and Lúthien as recorded in Sil77 is based on TY as it seems. And we should take that account even if it is constructed by Christopher Tolkien.

FD-SL-31 That Dior wore the Silmaril in public and that the jewel help him in restoring Doritah should be in-cooperated from TY.

FD-SL-32 Also we should mention that Maedhros restrains his brethren in the fist council. In TN the messenger sent to Dior was Curufin himself. There are some reason against that but I don’t think they are overwhelming and I would re-establish the conversation between Curufin and Dior from TN in our version.

I'm ok with this.

That it was Celegrom who inflamed the brethren in the second council should also be in cooperated. The Details of the fight in Midwinter should be told:
FD-SL-33 The Feanorians won a battle against Dior at the east marches but Celegrom was slain there by Dior how was killed also. Curufin and Caranthir are also slain.
FD-SL-34 Then the Feanorians sacked Menegroth but did not find the Silmarill since Elwing had fled away with it, while the sons Dior were captured and left to strave in the woods.
FD-SL-35 The Feanorians were attacked by a late coming company of the Sindar and Feanorians were in the end “masters of field of dead”.

FD-SL-36 Last of all we have to recount the further flight of Elwing. In TY her mother is with her and they first go to Ossiriand and later when they hear of fugitives of Gondolin they join them at the Mouth of Sirion.

I'm ok with this too.

[Findegil]

FD-SL-06: Posted by Maedhros:

Ever since our last discussion of the Ruin of Doriath, I have thinked about this and I think that there is a simple way to do this. We can move the scene that Húrin and the Outlaws reached the doors of Menegroth and change it so that they reached some outside part of the Girdle of Melian and that they are transported into Menegroth. That change would involved minimal editorial alterations by our part.

That was what I tried with the secret bridge over Sirion. But it is clearly not quite sufficient since the Gridle protected Nivrim. I am sure that we can find some solution.

FD-SL-08: Posted by Maedhros:

I still think that as Aiwendil suggest way back and CT did is that it would be best for us not remove that battle.

I think the "not" is just a typo. Aiwendil and Christopher Tolkien did suggest to remove the fight. And I strongly agree with that, as you seems to do.

FD-SL-09 & FD-SL-10: I am still not quiet happy with the scene of the departure and the suggestion of some fate for the outlaws. It might be that we need the help such a master of ambiguous writing as Aiwendil to do that in a fashion that satisfies us all.

FD-SL-11: So were are again in a dead lock. Since I can not see Thingol simply dismiss his first impulse to get ride of the treasure just by looking on it again. Further I think that you overestimated the role I would use Ufedhin here. I would have taken him as an Elf that had fallen under the cruse of Mîm and did lure Thingol not to through the gold away, nothing more. When I think about the behaviour of Saeros during the feast he is an good example for an Elf-Lord that would fit the role of Ufedhin I have proposed above.
The later treason of Narthseg (which I only meant to bring Naugladur some info of the hunt so that he could time his machinations to lure Thingol out of the Gridle) is a completely independent issue. It could of course be connected by using one and the same person in both roles, but that would really be to much liberty in creating a new character.

FD-SL-12: Posted by Maedhros:

I think that we are forgetting one very important point in here. The gold that we are talking about here as in the Tale of the Nauglafring was the gold of the simple Rodothlim that were in no way comparable as to the later Ñoldor of Nargothrond. Remember that in the Tale the gold was not worked but it would seem to me unthinkable that the horde of Nargothrond under Finrod Felagund would be in such state. I'm not really sure how much worked that gold would need. To me it would be very beautiful pieces of gold.

That is a valid argument. But even if the people of Nargothrond were the most cunning Noldor-smith of all there would have been the possibility of a big hoard of un-fashioned gold in the halls of Nargothrond. But I must say that in this direction I had overdone it in my version of FoD by taking the descriptions of both results the smithies of the Dwarves together. Maybe we should use the first one to describe the treasure when it is brought forth by Húrin and the Outlaws.
I am not convinced that the Dwarves were only engaged to fashion the Nauglamir.
The other payments demanded by the Dwarves are clearly debatable. But we need something to lunch a quarrel and these demanded payments seemed perfect for that.

FD-SL-14 - The Dwarves already plant treasury.
Oh, sorry a bad misprint of mine. It should read: The Dwarves already planed treachery. Meaning that they lusted for the treasure and sought for a way to get hold on it.

Posted by Maedhros:

I see no reason as to not have a battle between the dwarves and the Elves of Doriath. It can be seen that there was a quarrel between the Elves and dwarves that ended up in a battle between them. It seems perfectly logical thinking about the curse of the gold.

Consider the result of a battle: Dwarves would have been killed. Okay, now the Dwarves that were driven away would reach Nogrod. What ever they tell there they would have to give some account why some of them were slain. From The Hobbit we learn that the Dwarves started the war only for the withheld reward. Thus the Dwarves that returned must have given a tale in which the dead Dwarves were killed justly or the fight would have been re-lunched for revenge and not only for the reward.
Alternative we could consider the statement in The Hobbit to refer to the first fight in Menegroth between the Dwarven-smiths and the Elves. But that would mean that the Dwarven-smith must capture some part of the treasure for which we have no hint at all in JRR Tolkiens texts.

FD-SL-20: Posted by Maedhros:

I don't think that treachery of the elves should be used, instead I would use the idea of Naugladur would know about the hunt. I mean the dwarves had already worked in Menegroth before and it is very plausible that they would know about certain customs in Menegroth, as the hunt.

The plot is workable without the treason of some Elves. But why not use it? The yearly hunt of Thingol (which could have been know about by Naugladur) could have been everywhere in Doriath. An Elf new come from Menegroth would had have the necessary information for Naugladur were to look for Thingol to lure him out of the Girdle.
And up to this point you have been the one that argued with the potency of the cruse of Mîm. Isn't a treacherous Elf a plausibly result of that cruse?

FD-SL21: Posted by Maedhros:

Using the hunt is the way that Thingol is killed outside his borders.

Not really, the hunt would normally be lunched inside the Girdle or at least so I would think. Otherwise there would not be any need to lure Thingol to come out of protection. Which JRR Tolkien clearly saw.

FD-SL-23: Posted by Maedhros:

When Thingol is killed we can follow the TN where Melian feels that her husband is dead, her power of the Girdle is gone, she fleds to find her daughter.

But in TN the girdle is already out of function by the treason of Narthseg. And Melain did not fled to find Lúthien:

Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for as they came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other, and Gwendelin went forth from the places of her abode, and her bitter weeping filled the forest. Now did a great darkness fall upon her mind and her counsel and lore forsook her, at she wandered she knew not whither for a great while; and this was by reason of her love for Tinwelint the king, for whom she had chosen never to fare back to Valinor and the beauty of the Gods, dwelling always in the wild forests of the North; and now did there seem to her neither beauty nor joy be it in Valinor or in the Lands Without. Many of the scattered Elves in her wayward journeyings she met, and they took pity on her, but she heeded them not. Tales had they told her, but she hearkened not over much since Tinwelint was dead; ...

It is in S and in Q30 that Melain goes from Menegroth to seek Lúthien. And in both versions it is again treachery of the Elves that had removed the girdle. But this was not to the liking of JRR Tolkien as he later stated in TY.
Posted by Maedhros:

JRRT quote doesn't necessarily mean that Melian willingly removed the girdle but as CT imply in his version, that her power over it was gone, and that is why she fled.

I do not interpret the Sil77 version in that way. I think that you changed cause and effect here. Melian is trouble by the death of Thingol and forsook Middle-Earth. She did not remove the Girdle with some purpose but she did not longer care for it. She did not fled because she was no longer able to protect Doriath. She went way because here former life had fallen in ruin and was stripped from its sense for here by the death of Thingol. And last but not least, why should here power over the matter of Arda be gone with the death of Thingol? Do you see Melian acting with Thingol in a way like Sauron with the Ring? Possible but such a interpretation should not be forced on the reader of our version of the story.
Posted by Maedhros:

As to call her witless after such an event is to me unthinkable.

Not so for JRR Tolkien as seen in TN. But in my view you drive it even further by denying here power after the death of Thingol.
Posted by Maedhros:

Why wouldn't a maiar like her, who had not the restrictions that the later Istari had, would not be able to find her own daughter?

I agree on that point, in principle she would have been able to find Lúthien, but see next § of the post. And for Melian not being restricted like the Istari I would say she might even have been more ristricted by her former actions: permanent incarnation, living in the fashion of the Sindar for a very long time, childbirth, gaining power over the matter of Arda (creating the girdle). But that is clearly a argument for nothing since we do not know enough to make a valid comparison.
Posted by Maedhros:

I don't see any pressing evidence as to why Melian should not be the messenger.

To put it simple: The problem is the Girdle. Remove Melian and the problem is solved. Do not remove her, and you have to argue the Girdle away in some very risky fashion.

FD-SL-24: Yes it works well, and we have already done some step in removing the innumerable host of Green-Elves that jumped from behind each tree when Beren sounded his horn. When we workout the passage I will give the purposed further reduction a try and we can see how it works.

At least I have the feeling that we know begin to discuss the core of the problems we have each with version of the other and not only the textual details. Even if I in the moment don't see us move nearer to any agreement.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Just wanted to let both of you know that I've been following this discussion. I had been thinking that I would avoid commenting at all until Earendil was finished, but as things here look to be going ahead with or without me, I will see if I can make some kind of response later today. If not, then, alas, I'll be away for a few days with no internet.

I think I can say in general that I'm wary of a lot of the proposals so far and I may end up advocating a lot less use of LT, unfortunately.

[Aiwendil]

FD-SL-03: I'd say it's possible, and even likely, that Hurin's slaying of Mim would have been restored if "Wanderings" had continued. But I do not think we have the authority to return to that story in violation of Q30. I guess I would go with the story in Q30 for Mim's death.

FD-SL-05: We have at least some indication that Tolkien might have intended to keep the outlaws alive up to Menegroth, since he says in relation to "Wanderings" that they are the "nucleus of the force" with which Hurin brings ruin to Doriath. The other piece of "evidence" here is simply Christopher's observation that Hurin's gesture is ruined by his being forced to get Thingol to send for the very treasure which is to be so dramaticly cast at his feet.

Still, some part of me says that since Q30 is the last full account of the Ruin of Doriath and we don't have any clear renunciation of that story, we ought at least to consider following the story there, however inadequate it may seem. It would at least obviate the problem of the fate of the outlaws.

FD-SL-06: The only logical way that Hurin can have gotten into Doriath is if he was led through the Girdle; so in an abstract sense I agree with Maedhros. I am not sure, however, that either lifting text from elsewhere in TT or inventing a secret bridge over Sirion to match that over Esgalduin is the way to achieve it. We could perhaps be ambiguous here.

FD-SL-08: This is one of the two really tricky parts in my view. I fear we can only go so far with ambiguous sentences. I am not at all satisfied with any of the possibilities:

1. The outlaws are killed on the way to Doriath, as in Q30. The trouble with this is of course that it ruins Hurin's gesture. We have what might be interpreted as an indication from JRRT that it was rejected; we also have the strong condemnation of the story by Christopher.

2. The outlaws battle with the Elves in Menegroth. This was the story in TT, but was rejected; there is no reason to think that it would ever have been re-introduced. It seems out of place in the later Silmarillion; also it seems likely that the inadequate story found in Q30 was devised to avoid this.

3. The outlaws leave peacefully. This is not found in any text; also there may be a problem with them escaping the curse of Mim.

FD-SL-11: I definitely don't think that we can re-introduce Ufedhin; nor can we invent a new character in his place. I don't see any reason to doubt the Q30 story here - nor in fact any reason that we need to elaborate on what is said there.

FD-SL-12 and FD-SL-13: Again, Q30 ought to be taken as authoritative. What we have there is ambiguous. I wonder about the necessity of re-introducing Lost Tales material merely for the sake of detail, when that material is so highly dubious. Again, I think that this is a place where we may have to just use Q30 as it is.

FD-SL-17: I don't know whether to consider The Hobbit in contradiction with Q30 or not. Christopher certainly didn't seem to think it was, at any rate. The statement in The Hobbit is quite general and clearly not intended to say anything about the precise sequence of events. I guess in the end I don't really see the contradiction - the Dwarves can go to war after the slaying of their kin and still be going to "retrieve their treasure".

FD-SL-19: Would the news of Mim's death really have point for the Dwarves of Nogrod, considering the later conception of the Petty Dwarves?

FD-SL-20: I don't think we can use the treachery of the Elves. It's simply out of place in the later Silmarillion. Putting it back in may be possible, but there's insufficient justification for it; it would be little better than fan fiction.

FD-SL-21: Tolkien could have revived the hunt story but did not. I don't see why we can't simply follow Tolkien's idea - that he was "induced to go to war beyond his borders". It becomes a problem only if we insist on investing every portion of the story with the level of detail found in the Lost Tales. Why not use the bald statement that "Thingol was induced to go to war beyond his borders"? Or, if we permit a stylistic revision, "Hearing of the anger of the Dwarves, Thingol went forth to war beyond the borders of Doriath."

FD-SL-22: I wonder about using Mablung here. In the 77 he defends the Silmaril to the last, but as I recall I could find no precedent whatsoever for this in any of JRRT's writings.

FD-SL-23: I think we can follow the note, much as Findegil suggests, in having Melian depart immediately. But I don't see a definite need to delete the Q30 story that she brought the message to Beren and Luthien before she departed for Valinor. Though I do understand the awkwardness of that solution. If that's deemed unworkable, I would go with Findegil's suggestion that she immediately goes to Valinor and that the message is brought to Beren and Luthien by some anonymous messenger.

FD-SL-27: This is indeed problematic. I'll think about it.

[Maédhros]

That was what I tried with the secret bridge over Sirion. But it is clearly not quite sufficient since the Gridle protected Nivrim. I am sure that we can find some solution.

FD-SL-06: The only logical way that Hurin can have gotten into Doriath is if he was led through the Girdle; so in an abstract sense I agree with Maedhros. I am not sure, however, that either lifting text from elsewhere in TT or inventing a secret bridge over Sirion to match that over Esgalduin is the way to achieve it. We could perhaps be ambiguous here.

I think that we are all on the same page in here.

FD-SL-08: This is one of the two really tricky parts in my view. I fear we can only go so far with ambiguous sentences. I am not at all satisfied with any of the possibilities:

1. The outlaws are killed on the way to Doriath, as in Q30. The trouble with this is of course that it ruins Hurin's gesture. We have what might be interpreted as an indication from JRRT that it was rejected; we also have the strong condemnation of the story by Christopher.

2. The outlaws battle with the Elves in Menegroth. This was the story in TT, but was rejected; there is no reason to think that it would ever have been re-introduced. It seems out of place in the later Silmarillion; also it seems likely that the inadequate story found in Q30 was devised to avoid this.

3. The outlaws leave peacefully. This is not found in any text; also there may be a problem with them escaping the curse of Mim.

If I'm not mistaken, Findegil and me agree on the fact that the outlaws are the ones who take the treasure of Nargothrond to Menegroth and that there is no battle there. Our difference seems to be in what happens to the outlaws after they leave. Do they live with some of the treasure or not? My opinion is that they do take some of it and that it is said that most of them died in quarrels on the road as to not escape the curse of Mîm.

FD-SL-11: I definitely don't think that we can re-introduce Ufedhin; nor can we invent a new character in his place. I don't see any reason to doubt the Q30 story here - nor in fact any reason that we need to elaborate on what is said there.

This is one of the two points in which I disagree with Findegil. I have argued against using either Ufedhin nor a betrayal of the Elves.

FD-SL-12 and FD-SL-13: Again, Q30 ought to be taken as authoritative. What we have there is ambiguous. I wonder about the necessity of re-introducing Lost Tales material merely for the sake of detail, when that material is so highly dubious. Again, I think that this is a place where we may have to just use Q30 as it is.

I would definitely in the whole Ruin of Doriath would introduce as most Lost Tales material as possible within our rules, considering that the Q30 account is very general.

FD-SL-17: I don't know whether to consider The Hobbit in contradiction with Q30 or not. Christopher certainly didn't seem to think it was, at any rate. The statement in The Hobbit is quite general and clearly not intended to say anything about the precise sequence of events. I guess in the end I don't really see the contradiction - the Dwarves can go to war after the slaying of their kin and still be going to "retrieve their treasure".

I agree with Aiwendil in here, and having the fight between the dwarves and elves would makes us follow the Q30 account as it was written.

FD-SL-20: I don't think we can use the treachery of the Elves. It's simply out of place in the later Silmarillion. Putting it back in may be possible, but there's insufficient justification for it; it would be little better than fan fiction.

I agree with this.

FD-SL-21: Tolkien could have revived the hunt story but did not. I don't see why we can't simply follow Tolkien's idea - that he was "induced to go to war beyond his borders". It becomes a problem only if we insist on investing every portion of the story with the level of detail found in the Lost Tales. Why not use the bald statement that "Thingol was induced to go to war beyond his borders"? Or, if we permit a stylistic revision, "Hearing of the anger of the Dwarves, Thingol went forth to war beyond the borders of Doriath."

I would personally want to follow the idea of the old hunt story but now I think that I can follow that because of the slaying of the Elves in Menegroth, Thingol was induced to go to war beyond the borders of Doriath.

FD-SL-22: I wonder about using Mablung here. In the 77 he defends the Silmaril to the last, but as I recall I could find no precedent whatsoever for this in any of JRRT's writings.

I would use Mablung here with no trouble. He is mentioned in the Tale of the Nauglafring as dying with Thingol.

FD-SL-23: I think we can follow the note, much as Findegil suggests, in having Melian depart immediately. But I don't see a definite need to delete the Q30 story that she brought the message to Beren and Luthien before she departed for Valinor. Though I do understand the awkwardness of that solution. If that's deemed unworkable, I would go with Findegil's suggestion that she immediately goes to Valinor and that the message is brought to Beren and Luthien by some anonymous messenger.

To put it simple: The problem is the Girdle. Remove Melian and the problem is solved. Do not remove her, and you have to argue the Girdle away in some very risky fashion.

Findegil is correct in this. But there is another factor to consider. Melian is a wise and great queen. I just can't see her that if she had the ability to keep the Girdle in place after Thingol's death, she would choose not to do it and leave and Valinor at once. I know that she would be in shock at the death of Thingol but not as to leave all of Menegroth vulnerable to such a devastating attack. I would rather follow CT as he did in the QS77 riskier as it might be.

[Findegil]

First of all: Aiwendil it is nice to have your attention in this discussion.
Posted by Aiwendil:

I had been thinking that I would avoid commenting at all until Earendil was finished, but as things here look to be going ahead with or without me, I will see if I can make some kind of response later today.

My appologies if I by posting my storyline posts,I robbed you of the last free minutes of the day. I consider my self for nearly 2 weeks in which I had the posts nearly ready on my PC to hold back until Eärendil was settled. But in the end thought the situation would have been even worth if it would have gone further with me commenting in privat to Meadhros more and more elaborated drafts of FoD. Seeing that Maedhros had worked out in "secret" 2 further drafts of the story, I strongly felt the need of an open discussion.

Your generall remark that you would rather would like to go with Q30 than add things without need from TT and TN I can accept concerning the storyline and I would in some points even go further than you have done in this, as will be seen below. But as ever when the storyline is once settled I would go and fetch details of the text from LT to elaborat our text as far as possible. But still that is not the goal of the discussion in this thread.

Now to the points you commented on:
FD-SL-03: I am okay here with the story of Q30. But I would have a hard time to use the text of Q30 without any addition.

FD-SL-05: I think the evidence we have against Q30 in having the outlaws killed in quarrels on the road is hard enough. Of course we could argue that the change is not workable since the fate of the outlaws could not be solved by us, but that seemed a to conservativ fiew to me.

FD-SL-06: The secret bridge was not an invention of mine! UT; Part one: The First Age; chapter II: Narn I Hîn Húrin; sub-chapter: The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond:

... Hope then returned to Mablung; and they went on now together steering northward and eastward, for there was no road back into Doriath in the south, and since the fall of Nargothrond the ferry-wards were forbidden to set any across save those that came from within.
...
And now at length after many days they came nigh to the west border of Doriath, somewaht south of Teiglin; for they intended to pass the fences of the little land of Thingol beyond Sirion and so come to the guarded bridge near the inflowing of Esgalduin. ...

The bridge would be the natural choice to come into Doriath from the west. The only other way would be to go back north, cross the Brithiach
and enter Doriath from Dimbar. The weckness of my idea is that not only the bridge is guarded but there are also "the fences of the littel land of Thingol beyond Sirion", Nivrim as it is called on the map.

FD-SL-08: For 3 is the option to go. We will have a hard time to produce the text for that, but it is the most promissing way at least. If we in the end find out that it is really un-workable than and only than 1. must be the chioce in my view.

FD-SL-11: Posted by Aiwendil:

I don't see any reason to doubt the Q30 story here - nor in fact any reason that we need to elaborate on what is said there.

In my view I did not contradict anythink that was siad in Q30. But I am reading you right here, that you would even drop Melains warning about the hoard?

FD-SL-12 FD-SL-13: Posted by Aiwendil:

Again, Q30 ought to be taken as authoritative. What we have there is ambiguous. I wonder about the necessity of re-introducing Lost Tales material merely for the sake of detail, when that material is so highly dubious. Again, I think that this is a place where we may have to just use Q30 as it is.

Talking about storyline I am willing to accept that, but when it come to the actual text I can not imaging how we can go with a Q30-like version of Fod between a full told Narn plus WH and a full told FoG.

FD-SL-17: Okay, it might be that I have ofer interpreted here the lines in The Hobbit. If you both like to have the battle between the Dwarven-simth and the Elves we will use it.

FD-SL-19: About the death of Mîm: I think it would have some point for the Dwarves of Nogrod. Considering that the killing of the Pety-Dwarves by the Sindar was a grive just laid to sleep between the Sindar and the Dwarves as is told in Quendi and Eldar. Thus we have Thingols people hunt the Petty dwarves down to a few, and the Húrin killed the last and Thingol as the one who gets the advantage of all that. But it is a minor point and I could go without it.

FD-SL-20: Posted by Aiwendil:

I don't think we can use the treachery of the Elves. It's simply out of place in the later Silmarillion. Putting it back in may be possible, but there's insufficient justification for it; it would be little better than fan fiction.

It is interesting how the view point is changed here. The treachery of the Elves is in full flavor in Q30! How can it be consider fan-fictional to hold it, if as you have argued as jet Q30 is the leading text for our storyline? The note about the passage of the Girdle of Melian does only provide evedence that the treachery was a sufficent tool to surround the problem of the Girdle of Melain, but does not say that there was no treachery involved.

FD-SL-21: Here we have the same situation as before. The hunt is part of the Q30 narrative. Thus it was never droped in the fulltold narrative. It is clear if we will use the second opption given in the note ("Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders") we must skip the hunt. But were is the reason for not using the first oppoin given in the note and stick to the hunt? Beside the fact that we would be more true to Q30 which is Tolkiens latest telling of the story, we would get some additional advantages: As I see the millitary situation in Beleriand the Dwarves of Nogrod would not have been able to fight a war against the army of Doriath with out some trick. And that is also hinted at in TN and Sil77. But if the attack is unfore-seen it can be argued that they would had have a chance to gain the success they clearly had.
Posted by Maedhors:

I would personally want to follow the idea of the old hunt story but now I think that I can follow that because of the slaying of the Elves in Menegroth, Thingol was induced to go to war beyond the borders of Doriath.

I can't see the point here. Why is it less probable that Thingol goes to a hunt when some Elves are killed in the fight with the dwarve-smith? Doriath had long since been fighting at the borders as we learn from the Narn. Thus a few dead Elves in Menegroth would not stop the festival hunt. Okay, I can see the fight in Menegroth could have given Thingol a reasson to go to war beyond the borders. An dif you meant that it is clearly a point, but none that we could take up in the text.

By the way: Posted by Aiwendil:

Or, if we permit a stylistic revision, "Hearing of the anger of the Dwarves, Thingol went forth to war beyond the borders of Doriath."

If this is consider a stylistic revision, than I am the conservatist editor among us!

FD-SL-22: The detail of Mablung warding the Silmaril in Menegroth is an editorial invention of Christopher Tolkien. The question might be if Thingol does waer the Nauglamir when he is traped by the Dwarves. If not and the Nauglamir is hoarded in Menegroth we could consider Mablung as a special guard for it. But I see the scene thus: Thingols has gone to a festival hunt in his best fashion wearing the new wrought Nauglamir. Withhim are all the Lords and noble Elves of Doriath including the cheif of his thanes Mablung but not a grat army. Then he is lured out side the girdle an attacked by an superiority of Dwarves. As is everybodies duty all defend the king with their life until all are foredone with Mablung as his chief thanes dying as the last defender beside the king himself.
If the hunt is used Mablungs place is by the King as he was in the original hunt for Charcharoth.

FD-SL-22: But in Sil77 Melian does not go her self to Ossiriand but bides Mablung to send a message. It is right that Sil77suggests that here power was not removed willingly but I would fell much saver if we could left that point open.

Respectfully
Findegil