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#1 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
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![]() Quote:
From a storytelling perspective, Tolkien needed one big dramatic battle, not a long drawn out campaign of small skirmishes.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#2 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Always here, never there.
Posts: 25
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True Kuruharan, it did work for the story.
Sauron's objective was to destroy Gondor's people by any means possible. If they evacuated only civilians, he would hunt them down. In the wilderness, fleeing from Sauron, feeding an entire city of people on the go, with no time to set up farms and a permanent abode would be worse for the people. Starvation would set in even faster outside the city as it would inside. At least they had food stores inside the White City. Also there was a motive here that affected strategy grately. The whole point of holding out against a seige was to keep Sauron's gaze fixed on Gondor; giving Frodo and Sam enough time to destroy the Ring. If it worked, better to have lost a few civilians of starvation then to have a lot slaughtered by roving bands of Wargs and Orcs. If Frodo and Sam failed would it really matter if they were inside the White City or in Anorien? Either way, they would be screwed. ![]()
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"It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing. Such a little thing." -Boromir, Captain of Gondor |
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#3 |
The Perilous Poet
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Heart of the matter
Posts: 1,062
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As has been touched on above, abandoning your major population centre, strategic stronghold and most defensible proposition is rarely a victorious tactic.
In addition and in response to the above 'slash'n'burn' proposal, it is worth noting that this is a truly horrific tactic that any force controlled by a power with concern for the welfare of life and lands would avoid at all costs. To delve further into the example of the Russian withdrawal through these means during WWII, the scorching of the rich farmlands of the Ukraine and then-western-Russian provinces caused the death of, conservatively, several tens of millions of people, and plunged those lands into a cycle of poverty and hardship from which some areas have barely recovered. Some victories are not worth having.
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And all the rest is literature |
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#4 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
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"One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters."
================================= There are obviously strong arguments for trying to hold Minas Tirith, both literary and strategic. The concept of a retreat and strategic withdrawal is more in the nature of "contingency plans" and leaving your options open. It would obviously be better to hold Minas Tirith but to stubbornly do so at all costs would be analagous to Stalin's insisting on holding forward front lines and then Kiev in 1941, rather then the flexible defense favored by his better generals. And recall that at Stalingrad the majority of the civilian polulation was withdrawn. Certainly Gondor did not anticipate the gate being destroyed, and if it hadn't a viable defense was possible (though not certain). Denethor did (unlike PJ's characterization) make prudent preperations. One can imagine in the weeks and months preceding a possible attack evacuations of nonessential populations. And of intriguing interest to me is the use Gondor and Rohan could have made of pretty secure back links to each other and as a fairly safe area (even if in camps) for their populations in the Anfalas and Pinnath Gelin. If the corsairs were repulsed the nature of the rivers in south Gondor and strongholds like Dol Amroth and Pelargir would have been substantial barriers to a divided Mordor force and given time for an even further withdrawal of refugees into Eriador, if necessary. And as it happened, with Aragorn destroying the corsairs and occupying south Gondor past Pelargir (and controlling the seas) a strong defensive stance. A costly, but possibly necessary, strategy, if the alternative was to stay in an untenable forward area subject to conquest, perhaps again like the Russian withdrawal of population, industry, etc. east. A very costly strategy, but what was the alternative, to be destroyed by a still superior wehrmacht? Remember. in Rhovannion men and dwarves withdrew into Erebor, abndoning Laketown and thereby survived.
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Aure Entuluva! |
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#5 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,593
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I suppose that the question would ultimately rest on what the Gondorians thought they were fighting to protect. Were they fighting for themselves or for their land? If they were fighting for themselves then their lives and freedom were more important than any particular place and Minas Tirith could be sacrificed. If they were fighting for their land then losing Minas Tirith would be a grievous blow.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I agree with Tuor of Gondolin,the men of Minas Tirth were in greater danger than they even could have forseen,and they certainly would have been destroyed had not the Rohirrim come to their aid at that time .
I should say that Denethor's policy did not work,I think he Should'nt have sent men to Osgiliath as a small garrsion . These men were slaughtered for no reason. I think these men would have been better used if they had remianed in Minas Tirith. And as Rimbaud says abondoning your strong defenses to a "raze an burn" policy is rarely succesfull.They could have used this policy had Minas Tirith fallen.
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If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with the bull - The Phantom. |
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#7 |
Everlasting Whiteness
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I agree with rutslegolas about Denethor's sending of Faramir and company to Osgiliath being pointless but at this point Denethor's mind was already in the final stages of being overthrown by despair. He had already lost the son he loved best and I think he was desperate to see something of Boromir in Faramir. He may have honestly believed that if Boromir were there he could have taken Osgiliath back and sort of guilt-tripped Faramir into going by promising love if he lived up to the legend of Boromir.
Denethor was pretty much insane by this point anyway so he may have just not had a clue what he was doing! But then, I'm not sure if I'm remembering this correctly it may be a film thing that has forced it's way into my mind, but didn't Denethor say something about fighting being pointless and they were all going to die anyway so decide how you want to? Because if the answer to all that rambling is yes then maybe he thought Faramir would prefer to die in battle - with honour.
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“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.” |
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