The animals in ME

[Mithalwen]

I doubt that any cat would care about anyone's opinion of them ...... dogs think they are humans... cats think they are gods.... and they do have Baudelaire and Verlaine to fight their corner... of course cats do have that love of sitting on paper which is annoying for scholars.......

In the UK cats were regarded as both lucky and unlucky according to region .... the long association with witchcraft maybe...

Tolkien makes up for the eaten ponies in the Hobbit in LOTR .... Bill and Merry's ponies all survive ..... even Boromir's horse gets home.... but the talking animal stuff... hmmmm in the cases where it can't be explained by "lesser Maiar" or certqain individuals eg ... Beorn/ Radagast having a particular understanding of otherwise ordinary animals ....well it just seems a weakness to me...... keep thinking of Skippy and Lassie...

But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......?

[Lobelia]

But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......?[/QUOTE]



Good point, Mithalwen! I wonder about this too. Glorfindel's horse is pretty bright and able to keep Frodo on his back, just as Shadowfax does with his riders. Do the Elves have - well, Elvish horses, or do they just breed them as beautifully as they do everything else? Maybe Glorfindel's horse has a meara in his background? After all, the Rohirrim are just ordinary humans who are good at breeding horses, and they can't possibly have found a way to breed the ancestors of Shadowfax. Maybe the Elves did it originally? Does anyone know?

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I doubt that any cat would care about anyone's opinion of them ...... dogs think they are humans... cats think they are gods.... and they do have Baudelaire and Verlaine to fight their corner... of course cats do have that love of sitting on paper which is annoying for scholars.......

In the UK cats were regarded as both lucky and unlucky according to region .... the long association with witchcraft maybe...

Tolkien makes up for the eaten ponies in the Hobbit in LOTR .... Bill and Merry's ponies all survive ..... even Boromir's horse gets home.... but the talking animal stuff... hmmmm in the cases where it can't be explained by "lesser Maiar" or certqain individuals eg ... Beorn/ Radagast having a particular understanding of otherwise ordinary animals ....well it just seems a weakness to me...... keep thinking of Skippy and Lassie...

But the thing I want to know concerns Asfaloth ..... the "elf horse" .... is there more significance to that than him being a horse owned by an elf? In the appendixes it mentions Glorfindel riding up on his white horse - surely it can't have been the same one..... or is there an implication of some race of immortal elf horses......?

I can see why Tolkien based most of his works upon the ethnics of myth from northern europe... If Tolkien had grown and lived in northern africa and the middle east, the fact that cats were governed by Sauron's will would have been changed dramatically, (think of cats being viewed and respected much like shadowflax or the Eagles). If you know your Ancient Egyptian and Persian and Lybian mythology you might have an understanding of the point i'm trying to make.

As for "witchcraft" and cats... First of all, as a Scholar i would like to point out that the time period of the Inquisitions was the churches way of establishing (and with vindictive jealousy against both royalty and state) that they were in "command". Also, they wished to establish and utterly control the roles of both women and men. When cats came into the matter is untraceable, but it was one way and symbol the church saw as influencing the stupid multitude with their cause. Thus, cats went from good, okay, and then to "evil".

Since this cat subject seems to be interesting to a wide range of people, i would suguest this valueable resource to all who wish to read it:

Cult of the Cat by:Patricia Dale-Green (it is currently out of print at some websites but, it can be found in mostly any buy and sell bookstore.good luck!)

Blessed Be, THE Ka

[Mithalwen]

I am not sure I think there is anything "magical" abou the Mearas...beyond a remarkable bloodline, carefully nurtured by the Rohirrim and reserved like anything of the finest quality for the greatest among them ..Shadowfax....well he may come almost into the Huan category.....

I know that Tolkien felt that Elves had an instinctive understanding of animals and so I don't think Asfaloth's obedience is implausible even if he were an "ordinary" horse albeit reared and schooled by elves.... I suppose it is simplest to view the term "elf horse" as being used merely to distinguish it from the black riders horses..... and maybe Glorfindel always had white horses..... like some people always buy the same make of car..

[Sandro]

Great point, Ka! The Egyptians revered the cats (even built a necropolis for them), scarabs, falcons, cows, etc. They feared such animals as snakes, crocodiles, and jackels. respected, but feared. Thus the revered ones were "good" and the feared ones "bad". Same thing with Tolkien.

Plus, Tolkien never says wolves are evil. He says that the Wargs are a malicious and violent breed of wolves. If my memory serves me, no one is ever attacked by wolvee, just wargs. some things are bred to be evil. Not all the Eagles were good, as mentioned in The Hobbit. Not all the Ravens were bad. Some animals, such as the Mumakil, were just put to evil means.

[Lobelia]

Re: cats. I think Tolkien's reference to cats as the fauna of Mordor was pretty much tongue in cheek - someone had asked permission to use LOTR names for a line of Siamese cats. I have never owned one, but a friend of mind keeps Siamese cats and from what she says of them, she might agree! You really don't want to get on their wrong side.

Besides, can't you just see the Dark Lord with a cat on his lap? (Assuming he was embodied at the time.)

[Mithalwen]

A white one maybe "I have been expecting you, Mr Baggins...." Sauron AKA Ernst Stravro Blofeld.....

[Evisse the Blue]

Besides, can't you just see the Dark Lord with a cat on his lap?

I just got an image of Sauron as Dr. Evil (from Austin Powers)

Cats as conected to evil: You know how cats prefer certain places over others? Well, it's said that the places that the cats prefer to curl up in are charged with negative energy. Before you dismiss this with a laugh: I got lots of example of cats hanging around persons who were sick more than around healthy persons, and as close to the afflicted part as possible. Also, my friend's cat who is usually very wild comes runing to jump on my friend's lap whenever she's angry or arguing or raising her voice. Taking notice of this, she started using a special harsh voice which is reserved only for the cat, when she wants to call her. Cats are weird creatures. I for one don't hold it against Tolkien that he saw them as inhabitants of Mordor. He must have had some experience with cats.