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Old 08-09-2004, 01:50 PM   #1
Lalwendë
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Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Lalwendë is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I think one of the reasons I like this chapter so much is that it contains so much archaeological detail. Firstly, the landscape of the Barrow Downs is recognisable as that of the downs of southern England, an area rich in pre-history. To the south west of Oxford are the Lambourn Downs, where can be found the Seven Barrows. In addition, there is the Vale of White Horse, and nearby, Waylands Smithy, another barrow which tapers down to very small proportions at one end and has an entrance very like the barrow in which Frodo is trapped. In Cornwall there are mysterious barrow-like constructions called Fougous, which some archaeologists say were used as grain storage, and some say were used as places where people could go into trance and contact the dead. This makes me think of the hobbits lying in a state of trance, trapped in the barrow.

Tolkien, in addition to his impressive knowledge of languages and folklore, clearly knew much of archaeology and pre-history. The hill on which the hobbits take their lunch is like a henge (very like Arbor Low in Derbyshire), and there appear to be both longbarrows and roundbarrows, as in the Salisbury Plain landscape. Later in the book we also see the Rohirrim making use of burial mounds or barrows, which is also interesting.

Does Tom Bombadil end up acting as a grave-robber/archaeologist after his rescue of the hobbits? He causes the barrow to partially collapse, and he removes the treasures. Not only that, but he leaves treasures open to the air on top of the barrow. This itself has a link to pre-history as one form of burial was to leave bodies on hillsides so that animals may eat the remains - thus sending the spirit of the deceased back to 'earth'.

The other reasons I like this chapter include the language, which is wonderful, including this:

Quote:
Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind; a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise.
Finally, from the first moment I ever read this chapter, I have found it eerie and chilling. I am in a way glad it was cut from the film as I don't think I would have liked a film interpretation to interfere with what is an enduring nightmare for me. A nightmare I rather like, though.
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Old 08-10-2004, 04:54 AM   #2
Hilde Bracegirdle
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Yes Estelyn, that phase also stood out for me, so very original a thought! And so descriptive as well.

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The night was railing against the morning of which it was bereaved, and the cold was cursing the warmth for which it hungered.
And I agree with Heren Istarion that Bombadil and the Wight seem to be echoing the Ainulindale, and following the course of their respective orientation in the song. And though, at least in Tom case, the songs seem somewhat childlike, as Aiwendil put it with forced rhyme, they still hold power. And as he himself says, his songs are stronger, likely because they stem from Illuvatar as opposed to Melkor. I think this is where I would part ways with this thought. But I still purpose that he is a created, rather than creating force. As for Gandalf holding him in respect, if Tom were some form of unfallen creation, he would reflect Illuvatar’s intent unblemished, just as his song reflects the Ainulindale, and would be honored for that I should think.

There is a purposeful and jarring juxtaposition between Tom and his simple songs/ways and his age/knowledge. It does not seem to fit at all. And I don’t think this simplicity was just an unfortunate choice on Tolkien’s part. Didn’t Galahad also seem a bit annoying? And his naming of the ponies was also a strange thing, like Adam naming animals. (But I am go off the deep end now, and it's quite alright to say so! )

The idea of Frodo’s experience in the Barrow as a rebirth is a new one for me davem, many thanks! I will have to reread now with that in mind, to see what else there is to be gleaned in the transformation!

And Laiwende, Thanks for your sharing the landscape around southern England! Your mention of Tom as an archaeologist struck me also, in that Tom removed treasure from the barrow, but the hobbits were the treasure he seemed to value more.

Out of curiousity, does anyone know if the significance of the brooch Tom picked out was further explained somewhere else?

Last edited by Hilde Bracegirdle; 08-10-2004 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 08-10-2004, 06:33 AM   #3
Estelyn Telcontar
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Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!Estelyn Telcontar has reached the Cracks of Doom and destroyed the Ring!
Hilde, Tolkien didn't explain anything about the brooch, but we did our best to make up for that on this discussion: Bombadil's brooch
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Old 08-10-2004, 06:47 AM   #4
HerenIstarion
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And as he himself says, his songs are stronger, likely because they stem from Illuvatar as opposed to Melkor
Basically, yes. Minor point - all songs, ultimately, find their source in Illuvatar. It the perversion/lack thereof which makes the right songs stronger (and that in the long run only - cf Felagund/Sauron again)
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Old 08-10-2004, 07:37 AM   #5
Firefoot
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Firefoot has been trapped in the Barrow!
I think the point of "passing the barrows on the west side" was discussed briefly in the Chapter 7 thread, but I would like to point some more things out here as pertain to this chapter. First of all, when the hobbits come upon that stone where they eat lunch by and fall asleep against, they sit with their backs to the east side. Warning bells, anyone? When they wake up, their is a cold gray shadow over them stretching out easterward (because of the sun setting in the west). Also, because of the sun, the fog on the western side of the hollow is not so thick or white. The hobbits get up and try to get away from the Barrow-downs, and Frodo becomes separated. The wind is blowing from the east, and the Barrow-wight that finds him also looms up on his right, and since he is going north, that too came from the eastern side. Tom's warning seems to have been proven true indeed! It rather makes me wonder what would have happened if the hobbits had taken their rest on the west side of the stone instead.
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Old 08-10-2004, 10:15 AM   #6
Hilde Bracegirdle
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Thank you for the link Estelyn, I will read it shortly.

And of course you are right Heren Istarion, all does find it's source, and probably it's culmination as well, in Illuvatar.

As for this matter of east verses west, yet another thing I have been oblivious too, though I certainly have no excuse. Tolkien seems to make a point of mentioning such things.

Last edited by Hilde Bracegirdle; 08-10-2004 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 08-10-2004, 08:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
'Few now remember them,' Tom murmured, 'yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.'
The hobbits did not understand his words, but as he spoke they had a vision as it were of a great expanse of years behind them, like a vast shadowy plain over which there strode shapes of Men, tall and grim with bright swords, and last came one with a star on his brow.
Here we see Tom uncharacteristically serious as he delivers a bit of history to the hobbits of Westernesse and those who dwelt in Middle-Earth before hobbits came- tying in with Gildor's 'But it is not your own Shire. Others dwelt here before hobbits were...' and his giving to the hobbits of the Numenorean blades turns out to be one of the best things he did. As well as this, we also see that Bombadil has the ability to conjure visions through mere speech, as well as singing.

Also this quote, as Estelyn said, gives us our (the hobbits') first sight of the Dunedain Rangers and especially Aragorn. The star on his brow is very significant because it is obviously the Star of Elendil and shows his inheritance of the Kingship of Gondor and Arnor. I made the bit 'sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness' bold because it struck me as similar to what Aragorn said to Gilraen in The Tale of Arwen and Aragorn (Appendix A; V)-

Quote:
'Then bitter will my days be, and I will walk in the wild alone,' said Aragorn.
'That indeed will be your fate,' said Gilraen....
An interesting thing that just occurred to me was that if you were to ask, "Who did the hobbits see first; Aragorn or Halbarad?" the answer might possibly be Halbarad!

When the sad time has come for the hobbit's and Tom Bombadil to part, it is interesting that Bombadil says:

Quote:
'No, I hope not tonight,' answered Tom Bombadil; 'nor perhaps the next day. But do not trust my guess; for I cannot tell for certain. Out east my knowledge fails. Tom is not master of Riders from the Black Land far beyond his country.'
This quote shows Tom's unsurety (is that such a word?) as to what course of action to take next outside his borders and the movements of the Enemy, while the next quote emphasises his blunt refusal to pass the borders of his land-

Quote:
Tom's country ends here: he will not pass the borders.
Tom has his house to mind, and Goldberry is waiting!
Tom's reluctance to go no further is striking, as well as is his admittance to having little knowledge of the land beyond his borders- in this respect, he is very similar to Sam who knows the geography of the area within a 20 mile radius of Hobbiton very well, but that is his limit. He also admits that he has no power over the Black Riders, though he has proved that he is able to resist evil (by not becoming invisible when he put the Ring on; and indeed, not wanting to keep it for himself). This is also important because he is able to overcome the Barrow-Wight and Old Man Willow, which can be considered 'evil'; however they are evil elements of Nature, whereas the Nazgul are not subject to Tom. So here, to me, it seems that Tom's power and Tom himself is restricted to his country where he is 'master' and outside of it he has little or no power.

On the subject of what Bombadil is, I have finally found the truth, compliments of Samwise Gamgee-

Quote:
'He's a caution and no mistake.'
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Last edited by Fingolfin II; 08-12-2004 at 09:41 PM.
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