Wormtongue: Birth of an orcfather? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nar · 09-18-2002, 07:43 PM

Frodo, I have a bad feeling even if he wasn't skewered Grima wouldn't have straightened out. Maybe Frodo could have eventually straightened him out, but he failed with Gollum, though he almost succeeded, if Sam hadn't awakened at the wrong time. Do you think Grima was more morally and spiritually degraded than Gollum or less, or the same?

Ah, Cazoz, welcome to the Downs, enjoy being dead! This is your second post-- it's the second question I've posed ... coincidence?? Or were you MEANT to post here, and NOT by ... Never mind. I get carried away sometimes. Yep, Grima was degraded by evil and constant deception followed by constant bickering, I would certainly agree with that. I don't think Saruman actually turned him into an orc, I just suspect he privately tried to. I have no proof of that, however, it just came into my mind that a corrupted Curunir would have tried.

He made a ring, he practiced deception and beguilement, he worked his honeyed voice for all it was worth, he was a Sauron groupie. Or a Morgoth groupie. Like a besotted teenybopper, he wanted to be just like his idols! They made living beings into orcs, he wanted to as well; he wanted to do everything they did. I'm making a distinction between breeding or enhancing existing orcs and actually degrading a non-orc into an orc-- I consider that a taller order, a greater crime against nature and Eru, and a nastier achievment all around. Everything was more malleable in the First Age, Arda was young and power of various sorts was everywhere. I don't think any non-orcs were made into orcs after the First Age ended. That's why Saruman would have thought it such a cool thing to do.

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]

09-18-2002, 07:43 PM	#1
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	Frodo, I have a bad feeling even if he wasn't skewered Grima wouldn't have straightened out. Maybe Frodo could have eventually straightened him out, but he failed with Gollum, though he almost succeeded, if Sam hadn't awakened at the wrong time. Do you think Grima was more morally and spiritually degraded than Gollum or less, or the same? Ah, Cazoz, welcome to the Downs, enjoy being dead! This is your second post-- it's the second question I've posed ... coincidence?? Or were you MEANT to post here, and NOT by ... Never mind. I get carried away sometimes. Yep, Grima was degraded by evil and constant deception followed by constant bickering, I would certainly agree with that. I don't think Saruman actually turned him into an orc, I just suspect he privately tried to. I have no proof of that, however, it just came into my mind that a corrupted Curunir would have tried. He made a ring, he practiced deception and beguilement, he worked his honeyed voice for all it was worth, he was a Sauron groupie. Or a Morgoth groupie. Like a besotted teenybopper, he wanted to be just like his idols! They made living beings into orcs, he wanted to as well; he wanted to do everything they did. I'm making a distinction between breeding or enhancing existing orcs and actually degrading a non-orc into an orc-- I consider that a taller order, a greater crime against nature and Eru, and a nastier achievment all around. Everything was more malleable in the First Age, Arda was young and power of various sorts was everywhere. I don't think any non-orcs were made into orcs after the First Age ended. That's why Saruman would have thought it such a cool thing to do. [ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nar ]