Saruman Ring-maker - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tuor of Gondolin · 07-30-2004, 08:21 AM

Here is some interesting speculation by Michael Martinez. He seems to favor options 2 and 3 above.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/35612

"In the book, Gandalf reported to the Council of Elrond that Saruman wore a ring on his finger, and that he named himself "Saruman Ring-maker". If Saruman indeed had made a Ring of Power, he would have been using it to enhance his own native strength (and he would have had to put a part of that strength into his ring). Was it as great as the One Ring? No. We can be sure that Saruman's ring failed when all the others failed. When Gandalf, the hobbits, and the Elves of Rivendell and Lorien overtook him in Dunland after Sauron had been defeated, he told the Elves, "I did not spend long study on these matters for naught. You have doomed yourselves, and you know it. And it will afford me some comfort as I wander to think that you pulled down your own house when you destroyed mine." "

Encaitare · 07-30-2004, 02:43 PM

It's anyone's guess, really, since it's not explained further in the trilogy, the Silmarillion, or UT; it is possible that Tolkien mentions it further in his letters, but I don't know.

My guess is that Saruman, in his quest for more power, tried his hand at making his own Ring of Power, but that it wasn't all that he had hoped for. If it was indeed such a Ring, it probably failed when the One was destroyed, hence Saruman being reduced to little more than a beggar.

Boromir88 · 07-30-2004, 04:55 PM

It is a definate fact Saruman did make a ring. In his study of Sauron, and Saruman himself was a great studier in the 3 elven-rings. He did make a ring in an attempt to create a ring of power, like the 9-7-3-or 1.

We have no evidence supporting whether this ring had a lot of power or not. If you ask me it didn't help him get thrown out of the council, didn't help him in anything good with the Shire, so it definately wasn't as powerful as the other rings of power, but it still could have had some power in it, who knows.

Lachwen · 07-30-2004, 06:32 PM

Actually, I found an article (sort of...) about this on the Tolkien Crackpot Theories Page:

Saruman, who was a Maia of Aule just as Sauron once was, became learned in Ring-lore as he studied Sauron's evil works. Too well learned, as it turned out; for Saruman gradually turned to evil himself, emulating Sauron's works. Saruman also experimented with the making of a Ring of his own. Here's part of Gandalf's account to the Council of Elrond (Fellowship of the Ring, pp. 271-2 hardback, italics mine):

"'...and there he [Saruman] met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger...
"'..."For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"'"

But if Saruman were to experiment with making Rings of Power, he wouldn't make only one, would he? No; I think he'd make at least one other, and try to get his ring to exert an influence over the wearer of the other. And who would he give such a ring to?

Grima Wormtongue seems the obvious answer, since he was so completely under Saruman's control.

...Kind of helps you see Saruman in a new light, doesn't it? Sure, Sauron may have had the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths; but perhaps Saruman in his turn had Grima, the Ringworm!

...a lot of research and discussion for a very bad pun, no?

Morsul the Dark · 07-30-2004, 06:38 PM

not really i liked that pun but as for the theory I never thought of it like that it's very nifty good job!

luthien-elvenprincess · 07-30-2004, 07:39 PM

Excellent pun, Lachwen!!!

Concerning option #3: I don't think that Sarumen was subordinate to Sauron, either with his ring or without it. He didn't follow Sauron's orders, but worked events in an attempt to gain power for himself. He was influenced more by evil than by Sauron.

Vanya · 07-31-2004, 02:06 AM

Well, when I said subordinate, I ment Ring, not Saruman; If Saruman's ring was subordinate to the One, since craft needed for forging of it origins in the Second Age, when others were made in Eregion.

It is good point mentioning Aule, because it is significant to this problem; it seems that dealing with forces of the earth is job that easily can turn into evil, since the biggest diference betwen good and evil is how they treat MATERY; in the point when wise man or spirit starts to act in order to gain welth, power, and leaves spiritual path, he easily turns to Evil - he falls into morghotism.

07-30-2004, 08:21 AM	#1
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	Here is some interesting speculation by Michael Martinez. He seems to favor options 2 and 3 above. http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/tolkien/35612 "In the book, Gandalf reported to the Council of Elrond that Saruman wore a ring on his finger, and that he named himself "Saruman Ring-maker". If Saruman indeed had made a Ring of Power, he would have been using it to enhance his own native strength (and he would have had to put a part of that strength into his ring). Was it as great as the One Ring? No. We can be sure that Saruman's ring failed when all the others failed. When Gandalf, the hobbits, and the Elves of Rivendell and Lorien overtook him in Dunland after Sauron had been defeated, he told the Elves, "I did not spend long study on these matters for naught. You have doomed yourselves, and you know it. And it will afford me some comfort as I wander to think that you pulled down your own house when you destroyed mine." " Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin; 07-30-2004 at 08:25 AM.

07-30-2004, 06:32 PM	#4
Lachwen Wight Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Greenwood the Great. Posts: 115	Actually, I found an article (sort of...) about this on the Tolkien Crackpot Theories Page: Saruman, who was a Maia of Aule just as Sauron once was, became learned in Ring-lore as he studied Sauron's evil works. Too well learned, as it turned out; for Saruman gradually turned to evil himself, emulating Sauron's works. Saruman also experimented with the making of a Ring of his own. Here's part of Gandalf's account to the Council of Elrond (Fellowship of the Ring, pp. 271-2 hardback, italics mine): "'...and there he [Saruman] met me and led me up to his high chamber. He wore a ring on his finger... "'..."For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"'" But if Saruman were to experiment with making Rings of Power, he wouldn't make only one, would he? No; I think he'd make at least one other, and try to get his ring to exert an influence over the wearer of the other. And who would he give such a ring to? Grima Wormtongue seems the obvious answer, since he was so completely under Saruman's control. ...Kind of helps you see Saruman in a new light, doesn't it? Sure, Sauron may have had the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths; but perhaps Saruman in his turn had Grima, the Ringworm! ...a lot of research and discussion for a very bad pun, no? __________________ "'...Home is the sailor, home from the sea, And the hunter home from the hill.'"

07-30-2004, 06:38 PM	#5
Morsul the Dark Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 3,448	not really i liked that pun but as for the theory I never thought of it like that it's very nifty good job! __________________ Morsul the Resurrected

07-30-2004, 07:39 PM	#6
luthien-elvenprincess Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: what are you doing here? did you come here to eat my popcorn? Posts: 1,031	Excellent pun, Lachwen!!! Concerning option #3: I don't think that Sarumen was subordinate to Sauron, either with his ring or without it. He didn't follow Sauron's orders, but worked events in an attempt to gain power for himself. He was influenced more by evil than by Sauron. __________________ York Peppermint Patties taste better than Pearson's Peppermint Patties! But, Junior Mints are the best!

07-30-2004, 02:43 PM	#2
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	It's anyone's guess, really, since it's not explained further in the trilogy, the Silmarillion, or UT; it is possible that Tolkien mentions it further in his letters, but I don't know. My guess is that Saruman, in his quest for more power, tried his hand at making his own Ring of Power, but that it wasn't all that he had hoped for. If it was indeed such a Ring, it probably failed when the One was destroyed, hence Saruman being reduced to little more than a beggar.

07-30-2004, 04:55 PM	#3
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,521	Try Try Try again It is a definate fact Saruman did make a ring. In his study of Sauron, and Saruman himself was a great studier in the 3 elven-rings. He did make a ring in an attempt to create a ring of power, like the 9-7-3-or 1. We have no evidence supporting whether this ring had a lot of power or not. If you ask me it didn't help him get thrown out of the council, didn't help him in anything good with the Shire, so it definately wasn't as powerful as the other rings of power, but it still could have had some power in it, who knows.

07-31-2004, 02:06 AM	#7
Vanya Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Belgrade Posts: 43	Well, when I said subordinate, I ment Ring, not Saruman; If Saruman's ring was subordinate to the One, since craft needed for forging of it origins in the Second Age, when others were made in Eregion. It is good point mentioning Aule, because it is significant to this problem; it seems that dealing with forces of the earth is job that easily can turn into evil, since the biggest diference betwen good and evil is how they treat MATERY; in the point when wise man or spirit starts to act in order to gain welth, power, and leaves spiritual path, he easily turns to Evil - he falls into morghotism.