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#1 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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From davem's post
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Saying that Tolkien is letting us into his world and that he is open for writers to expand his works doesn't make our new stories within Middle-earth canon or 'canonical'. They are simply stories which are based on the world Tolkien gave to us through his books. They are stories, which take place and evolve in Middle-earth, they are stories that may resemble Tolkien’s style of writing and they may even be stories that are similar in spirit. However, as I still don't get how we are to judge what is in the spirit of Tolkien or not, I will say that this too is 'evidence' that nothing we write can be canon or 'canonical'. With good conscious, I just cannot do it.. (I might change my mind, but someone needs to convince me.) I mean, we may try to decide what we think is the spirit of Tolkien by our own experiences, opinions and etc., but who's correct and who's not? Naturally, we will see Tolkien differently, as to how we approach him as a person and how we approach his works. To me, it seems impossible to actually claim that "Hello you, but THIS is not in the spirit of Tolkien, duh!" and "Hello, that's what I call the spirit of Tolkien. Your fanfic is therefore 'canonical!'" From Saucepan Man's Post Quote:
You see, every time someone writes an RPG post or a Fanfic, we do not write it under John Ronald Reul Tolkien. Next to our posts, our writings, it says for example: "Novnarwen's post." (Okay, it doesn't actually say that by ones post, I just realised, but it says your name... Anyway, it's meant to be "Novnarwen's post... ![]() ![]() Since I've already explained that I do not think other writings and other writers than Tolkien and his writing can be canon or 'canonical', I don't see the reason not to create the characters you like, (as long as it is within the Forum's guidelines,) because it will never be canon or 'canonical' anyway. It is simply your writing, and you have based it on Tolkien's world. Since you are a part of a Tolkien community, which states that there are Tolkien RPGs here, you have already acknowledged that you give full credit to Tolkien for creating Middle-earth. Other than that the credit goes to you.. Anyway, now as that has been said, (If you haven't fallen off your chair already because of my ignorance or whatever, you will certainly now..) I am wondering about something.. Why are we putting so much effort into worrying about whether our writings are 'canonical' or not? I know it’s easy for me to say, who is just overly convinced that no one can possibly write a Tolkien fanfic or an RPG and make it canon or 'canonical', but what about you? I mean, as long as we respect the characters Tolkein indeed gave life, such as Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin (in fact every character he mentioned by name, which would take ages and ages to put on paper.), and don't put Meduseld on fire and make Theóden die of poisonous smoke and such, there is nothing 'wrong' we can do. I mean, have we really claimed from the start that we are making canon or that we are writing in the spirit of Tolkien? ![]() Okay, I'm wrapping this up since it's only ramblings now. Cheers, Nova
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Scully: Homer, we're going to ask you a few simple yes or no questions. Do you understand? Homer: Yes. (Lie dectector blows up) Last edited by Novnarwen; 07-29-2004 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Forgot to use my third smiley..:P |
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#2 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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![]() Having said that, I do agree to some extent with whoever (Aiwendil?) said that a fanfic can be "canon-ish" in the sense that it adheres to the "spirit of Tolkien". But you have amply illustrated the problem with this concept, Novnarwen. Who is to say what is in the spirit of Tolkien and what is not? There are obvious areas where we can agree, but there will also be many areas where we will not. Which takes me back to my (hackneyed) mantra concerning the freedom of the reader. If I read a piece of fanfic, like it and see it as being within the spirit of Tolkien (and provided that it does not conflict with anything Tolkien wrote), I can choose to believe that in my Middle-earth, the events described in it did happen. But for another person who reads the same fanfic, such events may well be events that they cannot accept as having occurred in their Middle-earth because they do not accord with their conception of Tolkien's vision. Of course, I agree with Child that there are some things that we would all agree do not, and could never be, within the spirit of Tolkien's Middle-earth writings. But she and I clearly differ when it comes to fifteen foot high rabbits and homosexuality (although I would hasten to add that there are in fact no fifteen foot rodents (whether owned by Legolas or not) in my Middle-earth). So, to a greater or lesser degree, we will all have different conceptions of Middle-earth. Which means that, when we come together to discuss Tolkien's works, the only things that we can all agree on are those facts which are expressly stated in the text. And even then there is room for interpretation, which brings us back to ... *Saucepan is overcome with deja vu and falls to the floor noisily in a heap of pots and pans* I'll give up before I start repeating myself any further ... Quote:
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 07-29-2004 at 06:28 PM. |
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#3 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Novnarwen wrote:
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The Saucepan Man wrote: Quote:
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#4 | |||
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Don't kill me for this but... because I am a simpleton I think you guys are stressing over this matter too much.While I cannot be more profound and deep in my response the explications that have circulated through this thread I'll get whatever it is out-of-my-system-right-away: Quote:
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...I know I know I'm shooting in the dark -- but the canonicity in this case applies solely to the reader at hand. That's another thing to observe about the discussion taking place as well.Thank you for bearing this incoherant post. |
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#5 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Then in the review column, the reader can say "Yeah, it's not bad, in some ways it's pretty close, but well-- this thing about Legolas and the fifteen foot rabbit..."
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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#6 | |
Deadnight Chanter
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Because you (and you, yes, you too!) all are in league plotting my ruin. For surely I'll be fired if I spend an instant more of my office time reading this unending thread, instead of actually doing some work I'm paid for! As a bonus, be enlightened by the following: Three blind men were shown into a stall were elephant (oliophaunt?) was kept. None of them has seen one before, so they were asked to touch it and then give their opinion about such a wondrous animal. But as they approached it from different sides, so the body parts they felt were different. So one said: 'elephant is like to a rope' (as he touched the tail), ‘nay’, said another, 'it is like a tree-trunk' (leg was the part of his choice), 'what are you two talking about?', came in the third, 'it's like a snake!' (for it was proboscis in his hand). So they quarreled, and could not agree upon which was right Now, I hold they all were right But, free-reader people, do not rejoice, for I’m not joining your ranks ![]() Though I hold that all three blind men were right, I hold such a belief with a proviso there were no one with clear sight to tell them about elephant. Tolkien is such a sighted one. cheers ![]()
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Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! |
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#7 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Yet there surely are other reasons for writing besides this kind of echo. There are many kinds of "influence" possible in the crucible of the creative imagination. When does a fanfiction writer cross over the line between "repeating" his favourite precursor and attaining his own kind of unique form of writing? After all, Tolkien himself was inspired by other writers to create his own Middle earth, a subcreation wholly unique. Is that freedom of invention, inspiration, creativity to be denied to those who follow him? Tolkien as muse can take many forms. And people are free to define what form they prefer, I suppose.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#8 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Here it goes again...
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Anyway, why should we try to make people believe that Tolkien had a hand in it? What kind of goal is that? Tolkien is not here, so he cannot possibly have had a hand in it. Everyone knows he isn't alive today. So I don't honestly see a point in trying to pretend that he has had a hand in it, when he has certainly not. As I said before, my previous post, I expressed some of the reasons why I don't believe in creating canon/canonical texts. (It looks kind of silly to quote your own posts (# 381), so I wont.. ![]() Anyway, as badly as my question about putting so much effort into making ones writing canonical was formulated, I must correct it: Why do you (Not all, but some) put so much effort into making your writings canonical? I am changing this for one reason, and that is; I don't believe in making so called canonical texts, because I don't possess the spirit that Tolkien possessed. I'm happy when I write RPG posts that are based on Tolkien's works. I sit down, clear my head and I try to figure out what I'm going to write. Suddenly (often after sitting a long time staring into the air, that is) I figure it out. I plan it; what my character thinks, what my character is going to do, what feelings he/she is going to express towards the situation he/she is facing and so forth. I already know that I'm not Tolkien (Can you believe that? ![]() * When reading HerenIstarion's little story, I think it reflects very well our differences, when we talk about whether this or that is in the spirit of Tolkien. We touch one aspect of his life, and are convinced that this is where his spirit came from. Then again, another may claim that another aspect is which drove him to write. We can argue and argue until we go insane, and never agree. But then again, I must ask, since I don't see it myself, why you ( ![]() I don't think we need one to tell us what is right and what is wrong when it comes to Tolkien's spirit and his perspective on things. I think we just have to be aware that we are fully responsible for the posts we make, and therefore since our RPGs (meaning among them, at this site,) are based on Tolkien's world and his works, we must follow the rules, which apply to the site. I cannot recall anything saying that we should write in the spirit of Tolkien. It should be consistent to his world, yes, but his spirit is not mentioned. If making canon/canonical/canon friendly texts (which I don't believe in the least is possible, bwahahah), of course Tolkien's spirit should be one of the writer's concerns. However, as previously stated in previous post, we can try to imitate, we can try to make a potions that will give us full insight about everything and we can even convince ourselves that we are making a canonical text, but none of us are truly following the spirit of Tolkien, because none of us have the answer, or rather; none of us can define what lays within the word spirit, and definitely not what lays within the spirit of Tolkien. Nova EDIT: Cross-posted with Bęthberry
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Scully: Homer, we're going to ask you a few simple yes or no questions. Do you understand? Homer: Yes. (Lie dectector blows up) Last edited by Novnarwen; 08-06-2004 at 09:59 AM. |
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