Arda was never flat

[Essex]

If Arda was always round, and never flat, How could the Lamps of the Valar on either end (north and south) of Middle-earth light the whole 'continent'? If Arda was round, they would have only lit up the regions physically possible until the curve of the planet stopped the light from shining into the central regions, in particular Almaren.

And the same goes for the Trees of the Valar in the Undying Lands. They would have only lit up the northern region if Arda was round at that time.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

Tolkien rejected the Lamps later on.

[Lalwendë]

Reading the quote used above brought to mind something else:

And still, if they should at the last come to the end of those lands and seas, beyond all lay the Ancient Darkness.

[Smith] stood beside the Sea of Windless Storm where the blue waves like snow-clad hills roll silently out of Unlight to the long strand, bearing the white ships that return from battles on the Dark Marches of which men know nothing.

Ever since the second quote was used in a recent thread about Smith Of Wootton Major it has stuck in my mind. It seems to me that it conjours up an idea of a flat earth. The waves don't come from over the horizon, they come from Unlight, a place of darkness which seems to be outside the world.

Now perhaps both passages use the idea of darkness to refer to the unknown, the distant, the undiscovered; this could simply be metaphor. When the Numenoreans made the discovery that the world had been altered, could it be that what they actually were experiencing was the dawn of a new knowledge? Previously they had held the world to be flat and that if they sailed far enough they would come to the end of it. Eventually they discovered that no matter how far they sailed they would come back to their starting point; this could coincide with the discovery (perhaps an awful realisation) that the world was after all round, and hence finite.

As to where the Elves go when they set sail, applying science to the matter doesn't answer any questions. It is possible that Valinor is a place which is difficult to locate, an anomaly; possibly it is even a place which is physically difficult to get to due to ocean currents (I often think of great feats of exploration when I consider this, such as the struggle to find the North West Passage). Another possibility is that it simply does not exist at all, that the Elves are going nowhere, a dark thought which has crossed my mind a few times; I wonder whether anyone else, with their modern logic has ever pondered this sad thought?

So choosing not to use science to answer that one is likely the only way forward. Using what is known in Tolkien's work would give the most probable answer.

[davem]

My own thinking on this is along the lines that at the fall of Numenor the world kind of split into two - Tolkien states that the High Elves (at least) live in both worlds at once. Say the world was originally (ie pre- FoN) flat. At the fall the world splits into flat & round. Mortals are seperated off into the round world as a consequence of the Numenorean's actions, but the elves aren't so limited. They continue to exist in the dimension of the flat world but they also find themselves in the round world of Arda.

Further speculation - time runs differently in the flat world after the FoN - more slowly if at all due to the flat world now being subsumed into the spiritual realm. So the Elves would find themselves existing in both the 'timeless' flat/spiritual world and the temporal round/physical world. The effect of this must have been psychologically quite traumatic & possibly explains their (increasing) desire to halt time in the physical world - effectively to bring the two worlds into alignment. I suppose the Elven ideal would not just have been to halt time in the physical world but, if possible to 'flatten it out' again.

Of course, the rings were created before the FoN so it could be argued that the desire to halt time & change probably always existed in the Elven psyche, but we don't know that that was the original intent behind the creation of the rings - maybe they were created for other reasons & only after the fall was it realised that they could serve the purpose I've suggested.

I don't know if this works as a theory but it would account for the increasingly isolationist/unworldly attitude of the Elves in the later Third Age - they would be faced with an increasing split between the worlds, as the round world, subject to time & change moved futher & further away from the timeless state of the flat world. It would also increase their desire to leave Middle earth & go back to Valinor - ie to go & live in the world/dimension which most suited their nature.

It would be interesting if the actions of Men in Numenor were responsible for the psycho-spiritual problems of Elves in the Third Age & eventually forced them to leave. Also it opens up the question of Eru's motivation in changing the shape of the world - was it simply to protect Valinor & punish the Numenoreans for their hubristic assault on the Blessed Realm, or was it also motivated by a desire to bring the Elves home to Aman, thereby freeing up Men to assume their destined dominant role in Middle earth?

Now, I'm sure there are those more knowlageable in Tolkieniana than I am who can demolish that little edifice......