The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Perhaps these types of characters are best used to inspire people when they need to do something that must be done that (hopefully) cannot be avoided or dealt with in a better way. Perhaps it can even be used when the people in question are actually operating from an advantage.

And that's it - the 'evolutionary advantage' if you like. Putting aside their actual behaviour & focussing on their literature, we have to say that the AngloSaxons held ofermod in higher esteem than the kind of 'cunning', logical behaviour in the examples you gave of actual battles. I'm not sure if there are songs or poems about Harold's or Alfred's exploits, but I suspect if there were they would depict them as displaying reckless courage over tactical cunning.

Eomer reacted in a passion during a period of intense stress. Such things are a natural part of combat. This in no way indicates that Rohan had a cultural policy of foolhardy battle-mania wildly driven on by unchecked pride. As I noted above, Theoden (who died in a way befitting a hero of that mode) never displayed that type of behavior. If he had he would have bravely charged the army guarding the road rather than chicken-heartedly going through Druadan Forest

Well, I suspect that if Theoden had 'bravely charged the army guarding the road rather than chicken-heartedly going through Druadan Forest' (& won) he would have been held in even higher esteem than he was, & if his forces had been totalled by Druadan ambush in the forest, he would have been condemned for his 'cowardice' in refusing battle on the road.

But I can only cite Faramir's words to Frodo (don't have the quote to hand) about the Rohirrim being 'middle men' who held feats of arms & martial glory as things to be admired, & how even the Gondorians esteemed such things above music & lore.

Once they were there they had little choice but to continue their little diversion on to the end. They would all have been killed anyway, in very unpleasant ways if they had surrendered.

I don't see this - Sauron had offered them terms of surrender - he wanted control, he wanted slaves, & he wanted that as quickly & easily as possible. I think if they had surrendered he would have accepted that, if for no other reason than that if he had taken their surender & then slaughtered them then everyone else in the west would have fought to the death, & it could have taken his years to achieve victory - indeed, it would have increased his chances of ultimate defeat - even with the Ring we can't be sure that he could hold back the whole of the people of the West, if they were certain that he would slaughter them if they surrendered.

[Bêthberry]

But I can only cite Faramir's words to Frodo (don't have the quote to hand) about the Rohirrim being 'middle men' who held feats of arms & martial glory as things to be admired, & how even the Gondorians esteemed such things above music & lore.

Perhaps if you scrolled back up to post #3, davem, you would see that the quote is at hand.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Perhaps if you scrolled back up to post #3, davem, you would see that the quote is at hand.

Erm, yeah

My only excuse is that I was posting before rushing off into work & didn't have time to check board or books.

As an aside, has anyone checked whch are the most often quoted sections of LotR on the Downs? Or have we got most of the book here, scattered across the various threads?

[Kuruharan]

This has become a pretty broad thread.

I'm not sure if there are songs or poems about Harold's or Alfred's exploits, but I suspect if there were they would depict them as displaying reckless courage over tactical cunning.

I’m sure there are. I am tragically unfamiliar with them, or at least I’ve forgotten reading about them. I know that Alfred’s story in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (an account which he was so thoughtful to sponsor for us) portrayed it as being more of a rags-to-riches story more than anything else.

Harold’s victory at Stamford Bridge is so overshadowed by his defeat at Hastings that perhaps not as much attention was paid to it by the English. There is a saga about the death of the Norwegian Harald. That one is certainly steeped in the traditional heroic mode, although (as usual) over the course of his life Harald did a number of things that according to that mode were decidedly unheroic.

Anyway…

Well, I suspect that if Theoden had 'bravely charged the army guarding the road rather than chicken-heartedly going through Druadan Forest' (& won) he would have been held in even higher esteem than he was, & if his forces had been totalled by Druadan ambush in the forest, he would have been condemned for his 'cowardice' in refusing battle on the road.

Possibly no and probably yes. (Confusing enough?)

If he had defeated the army on the road his own force would have been in such shambles as to be no use in relieving the siege of Minas Tirith. Theoden clearly possessed a strong sense of purpose in what it was he was trying to do and what was needed in the situation.

Yes, if he’d been ambushed and wiped out to the last man in the woods it would not have been good.

I don't see this - Sauron had offered them terms of surrender - he wanted control, he wanted slaves, & he wanted that as quickly & easily as possible.

Sauron was a pathological liar. Note the bit about “faithless and accursed.” Under no circumstances could the leadership of his enemies be allowed to escape or live. They could be the source of much trouble later. If I’d been Sauron I would certainly have killed them as quickly as possible. And why spare the army when a tremendous massacre could be used to inspire terror. I’d almost have rather that they fought so that I could give them a good trouncing and cripple the morale of the survivors on the other side of the river. Remember these were his enemies in arms that had marched right up to his gate.

Double Anyway…

Perhaps something about the appeal of ofermod is it attempts to provide comfort for the loss of family and friends. It is perhaps easier to accept if they died in a Thermopylaesque bout of over-heroics rather than as a result of “dear old Beorhtnoth was an overheated twit who did not understand his business.”

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Sauron was a pathological liar. Note the bit about “faithless and accursed.” Under no circumstances could the leadership of his enemies be allowed to escape or live. They could be the source of much trouble later. If I’d been Sauron I would certainly have killed them as quickly as possible. And why spare the army when a tremendous massacre could be used to inspire terror. I’d almost have rather that they fought so that I could give them a good trouncing and cripple the morale of the survivors on the other side of the river. Remember these were his enemies in arms that had marched right up to his gate.

Right, I'm going to go off at a tangent here:

The question I'd ask is, whether massacring a surrendered army would inspire terror or desperation. I don't think Sauron would want to create a situation where his enemies felt they had nothing to lose, & would be slaughtered anyway. That would make them desperate, & they'd fight to the death.

The question that underlies this is how powerful Sauron would become with the Ring back in his posession. Would he become effectively God on earth, able to manipulate reality, cause his enemies to blink out of existence, etc - would it be absolute power, or would he simply become far stronger than anyone else, so that victory over him became virtually impossible. If he put all his enemies into a position where they felt they would die anyway, whatever they did, would he be sowing the seeds of his own ultimate defeat? I suppose this depends on the size of the population.

Perhaps it was a more complex matter - Sauron knew (or feared) that the Valar would intervene if he embarked on mass slaughter - would they stand back & allow the Eruhini to be obliterated? - if he was to achieve total victory his only chance would be to enslave the Children through getting their surrender, effectively being able to claim that they 'chose' him as their leader. This would put him in a position of danger, admittedly, as living enemies are potentially dangerous, but they would be more manageable than the Valar arising in their wrath against him. The Valar's role is to protect the Children, so they could not allow their wholesale slaughter, but they cannot intervene as dictators, so if they (the Children) surrendered & accepted Sauron's rule, the Valar would be in a difficult position, as overthrowing Sauron then would be interfering & 'imposing' their decision on the Children. If the Valar had intervened in this way & forced their will on Middle earth, to what extent would they be driven by pride, ofermod, in that assaulting Sauron, with the Ring in his posession, could have been as devastating in its results as the Assault on Morgoth. It seems to me that the only way Sauron could achieve his goal of domination of Middle earth, without risking his own destruction, would have been to accept the surrender of his enemies, & basically hold to what he'd offered the Captains - at least at first.

[Kuruharan]

The question I'd ask is, whether massacring a surrendered army would inspire terror or desperation.

Ah, and a question of long standing it is too. It puts me in mind of the Mytilenian Debate in Thucydides.

I don't think Sauron would want to create a situation where his enemies felt they had nothing to lose, & would be slaughtered anyway. That would make them desperate, & they'd fight to the death.

Possibly. But it might also reduce his enemies to mindless gibbering wretches. Both have happened.

Would he become effectively God on earth, able to manipulate reality, cause his enemies to blink out of existence, etc - would it be absolute power, or would he simply become far stronger than anyone else, so that victory over him became virtually impossible.

I tend toward the latter. I think that Sauron’s reality bending days were behind him. That being said, if he regained the Ring nothing short of divine intervention was going to unseat him.

Perhaps it was a more complex matter - Sauron knew (or feared) that the Valar would intervene if he embarked on mass slaughter - would they stand back & allow the Eruhini to be obliterated?

I never meant to imply that he would massacre all the non-orcs in the world. He had obviously not done so in the lands he already ruled (although, one would likely find precious few Elves there). I did mean to imply that he would massacre every member of the Army of the West that had the impudence to knock on his door.

Hopefully, that clarifies my position on that matter a little.

Rereading the final paragraph of my last post I came to the startling realization that I had laughably failed to make my intended point but had instead said something completely inane.

What I intended to say was that tales of ofermod can be used in such a way. Ofermod itself can generally only be used to cause the loss of said relatives.

I hope that clarifies as well.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I hope that clarifies as well.

It does. I think I veer too much towards the 'poetic' side of things - I agree that, from the practical pov you are correct. Ofermod is too dangerous & destructive to be allowed out into the 'primary' world - especially these days. It belongs in the world of poetry & legend, & that's the source of too many things that we wouldn't want straying into the waking world. Didn't someone once remark that 'even Gollum would be good in a story' - but you wouldn't want to run into him down a dark alley!

Its an odd thing though, that like Dragons, we love to enter into the legendary world but would be terrified if its inhabitants strayed into ours. Even our maddest dreams can seem logical, fascinating, places - while we're dreaming. Its only when we awaken that we step back, analyse them & realise their craziness. To carry over a point I made in the 'Old Forest' thread, we're not Frodos, who seem to have strayed into this world by accident, & only really belong in the Dreamtime - we're Sam's, who love the dreamworld, & happily, even eagerly, stray into it, but know how to keep it in its place, & can avoid being overwhelmed by its 'glamour'.

So, I suppose we can all admire ofermod, like dragons & elves & wizards, as long as they stay in their own world. Ofermod in this world would, & has, caused as much devastation as a troop of dragons would. It belongs in the world of heroes, where we can (at least secretly) admire it.