A Probably too Sympathetic View of Gríma - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tuor of Gondolin · 07-27-2004, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by Encataire:
"I can't think of any example of true repentance"
___________________
Maedhros several times shows specific instances of repentence, but granted can't go the whole nine yards because of his slavish adherence to his oath.

Grima at the end seems to really be sick of being a bad guy and what he's done and may wish to repent, which makes the last evil deed of Saruman all the worse.

" 'Wormtongue!' called Frodo. 'You need not follow him. I know of no evil you have done to me. You can have rest and food here for a while, until you are stronger and can go your own ways.' Wormtongue halted and looked back at him, half prepared to stay. Saruman turned. 'No evil?' he cackled.".....

Encaitare · 07-28-2004, 08:55 PM

Exactly, the examples of Maedhros and Grima are pretty much what I was talking about. They may want to repent, and they may show signs of this desire, but they don't follow through with it all the way.

Yeah, Saruman was quite evil to poor Grima there...

Elianna · 03-13-2005, 09:06 PM

Saruman says he goes out and looks at the stars. "Even when he sneaks out at night it is only to look at the stars." Hmmm, looking at the stars...what a very Elvish thing to do. Surely, with the Elves being so famously enthralled by the stars, Tolkien wouldn't have said this about Gríma without cause, or something behind it.

The other thing is actually nothing to do with the book, but the movie. Look at Gríma's knife. Leaf shaped blade, a very graceful looking weapon. Fits the movie's motifs of Elvish blades.

Encaitare · 03-13-2005, 10:04 PM

I got the impression that Saruman was saying that sarcastically:

Quote:

'Wormtongue!' called Frodo. 'You need not follow him. I know of no evil you have done to me. You can have rest and food here for a while, until you are stronger and can go your own ways.'

Wormtongue halted and looked back at him, half prepared to stay. Saruman turned. 'No evil?' he cackled. 'Oh no! Even when he sneaks out at night it is only to look at the stars.'

It seemed to me that Saruman was mocking what Frodo said, suggesting that when Grima sneaked out at night it was not at all to look at the stars, but to do eviller things. He's probably lying and just making a bogus claim to belittle Grima even further, like he does when he suggests that he ate Lotho... I hope that he was lying then, at the very least!

Boromir88 · 03-14-2005, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Since I can't think of any example of true repentance

I would say Boromir is a classic example of "true repentance..."

In Anglo-Norman mythology there was this "Law of Compensation." A person committed a wrong act, and he must do certain things in order to regain his repentance...

1. He must tell all his sins. This was believed that if someone truly wanted to
"repent" then he must spill out his sins, not just ask for forgiveness.
2. He must ask for repentance.
3. He must pay gold, or he could sacrifice his life.

Looking at Boromir's final days he does all this. After he tries to take the Ring from Frodo, and ruin all, we have him at the end with Aragorn...

1. Tell his sins- "I tried to take the Ring from Frodo," he said.

2. Repentance- "I am Sorry. I have paid.

3. One could pay gold to "compensate" for their sins, but since I doubt Boromir has any gold, he does the other thing that was believed would "compensate" yourself Sacrificing your life- He does so to attempt to save Merry and Pippin.

The final stage is the priest/holy man must declare the man's acts as forgiven. Aragorn, a symbol of this does so.

Quote:

"No!" said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. "You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!"

I think Boromir's situation is the clearest act of repentance I have come across in Tolkien.

Encaitare · 03-14-2005, 05:55 AM

Well said, RepentedOne88.

I stand corrected.

Elianna · 03-14-2005, 06:50 PM

Eh, I figured that Saruman was agreeing with Frodo at first, basically saying, "Yeah, you're right, Worm's harmless. But there was that time with Lotho..."

Oh well, if Encaitare is the one shooting down my ideas, might as well give up. I'll go to my dark corner and play with my masks now...

Good show about Boromir, Boromir88, by the way.

07-28-2004, 08:55 PM	#2
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	Exactly, the examples of Maedhros and Grima are pretty much what I was talking about. They may want to repent, and they may show signs of this desire, but they don't follow through with it all the way. Yeah, Saruman was quite evil to poor Grima there... Last edited by Encaitare; 03-13-2005 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Oh, horror of horrors! Nearly eight months later I realize I spelled Maedhros wrong!

03-13-2005, 09:06 PM	#3
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	Some other things in Gríma's defense Saruman says he goes out and looks at the stars. "Even when he sneaks out at night it is only to look at the stars." Hmmm, looking at the stars...what a very Elvish thing to do. Surely, with the Elves being so famously enthralled by the stars, Tolkien wouldn't have said this about Gríma without cause, or something behind it. The other thing is actually nothing to do with the book, but the movie. Look at Gríma's knife. Leaf shaped blade, a very graceful looking weapon. Fits the movie's motifs of Elvish blades. __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

03-14-2005, 06:50 PM	#7
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	Eh, I figured that Saruman was agreeing with Frodo at first, basically saying, "Yeah, you're right, Worm's harmless. But there was that time with Lotho..." Oh well, if Encaitare is the one shooting down my ideas, might as well give up. I'll go to my dark corner and play with my masks now... Good show about Boromir, Boromir88, by the way. __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

07-27-2004, 10:08 PM	#1
Tuor of Gondolin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles) Posts: 1,548	Originally posted by Encataire: "I can't think of any example of true repentance" ___________________ Maedhros several times shows specific instances of repentence, but granted can't go the whole nine yards because of his slavish adherence to his oath. Grima at the end seems to really be sick of being a bad guy and what he's done and may wish to repent, which makes the last evil deed of Saruman all the worse. " 'Wormtongue!' called Frodo. 'You need not follow him. I know of no evil you have done to me. You can have rest and food here for a while, until you are stronger and can go your own ways.' Wormtongue halted and looked back at him, half prepared to stay. Saruman turned. 'No evil?' he cackled.".....

03-14-2005, 05:55 AM	#6
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	Well said, RepentedOne88. I stand corrected.