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Old 07-27-2004, 04:20 PM   #1
Maédhros
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Findegil, I had been hard at work with my version of the Ruin of Doriath. What I posted in this forum was only my first draft, I have taken a lot of your suggestions into account and there are somethings with your version that I didn't use eg. (attitude of the dwarves asking for some female elves as a reward).
Since we seem to have come to a cul-de-sac in our Eärendil chapter, I was wondering if you would be interested in reviewing my version (4th draft) so that we can come to a compromise and have a base text (which would be IMO very advanced because it would have both of our inputs) to begin the work on the Ruin of Doriath chapter.
Can I send it to you be email? I do not want to post it yet here because I think it will only bring more confusion.
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Old 07-28-2004, 04:58 AM   #2
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I can clearly read and comment on your version, if you like.

Send it to: Ralf.Volles@gmx.de

It could take some time before I will start reading since I am reading Antoines last FoG Version, which is a hard task.

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Old 07-29-2004, 10:08 AM   #3
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I have send you my draft of my version. As I have said before, it takes into account a lot of your input especially in the beginning, but as we move towards the middle of the story our views differ a lot.
I hope that we can reach a middle ground in it so that the result can be used as the base of that discussion.
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Old 07-30-2004, 01:49 AM   #4
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Since I hav as jet only read the first page of the draft I will not comment on it in generall. But it seems clear that the finding of the middleground as a basis for the gorupworking is what we have to do.

More on this when I have read it through and made a komparision with my owne ideas expressed in my prolonged Version.

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Old 12-07-2004, 12:07 PM   #5
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This is the first draft of an expansion of the storyline-version. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30).

We have three groups of changes:

RD-zz: General changes given and discussed in the thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers"

RD-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit our understanding developed in the Thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. In that thread I made the mistake to mark them with FD-SL-zz. But the numbers are identical. My apologise if that change does produce a mass now. Some numbers are missing, but that is normal since some of the points of the storyline-discussion did not produce any change in the text.

RD-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference.

At the beginning we have to create a transition from The Wanderingas of Húrin (WH). Over all the basis text will show trough not to much I think. But we will use it as a leading guideline and any part that is exchanged for some other text should be shown. As before, I start with §266 of WH, which is the last of that text.

I have tried to stick to the §-numbering done by Maédhros for his first draft, so that a comparison between that draft #1, my own earlier Version and the current text will be easier. In addition I have numbered the § anew in brackets starting with §267 in continuation of WH and starting over again when we come to the purposed chapter break. If a § of the basic-text is deleted completely it is not numbered.

As it has some value as a double-check during my work I will give here in addition to the edited version a clean text version.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is repeated before each §. But some times the new § was taken as an new add and handled accordingly.
Here after is given the Version for the public forum. I have ripped it of some of the textual content in many § by inerting dots instead. These dots conceal only General changes (RD-zz), all other changes are given so that they can (hopefuly) be understood.

Quote:
§43a (§27) Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the River {Gelion}[Duin Dear], where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], {sons}son of Fëanor. To the south of those lands between the river {Gelion}[Duin Dear] and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, {Gelion}[Duin Dear], Ascar, Thalos, Legolin, Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant. There lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Lúthien, in that time of respite which Lúthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of {Cor}[Tirion], nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the [First] Battle of {Unnumbered Tears}[Beleriand]. RD-EX-66 <Sil77 {At}And at that time Beren and Lúthien{ yet} dwelt in Tol Galen, the Green Isle, in the River Adurant, southernmost of the streams that falling from Ered Lindon … the waterfall of Lanthir Lamath beside her father's house.> RD-EX-67<TN {and Auredhir was}And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his}their forefather Beren, and all loved {him}them, yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinúviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the elfin folk of yore.> {But}And Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Lúthien remained Elves called it oft {Gwenh-i-cuina }[Dor Firn-i-Guinar], the Land of the Dead that Live.

§43b (§28) To the north of that region is a ford across the river {Gelion}[Duin Dear], near to its joining with Ascar that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named {Sarn-athrad}[Athrad Dear], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes{ and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian}. RD-EX-68<Sil77 Now word went swiftly among the Elves of Ossiriand that a great host of Dwarves bearing gear of war had come down out of the mountains and passed over {Gelion}[Duin Dear] at the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}. These tidings came soon to Beren and Lúthien>.

§ 44 (§29) RD-EX-69<TN, Note 13 {Then}It was told that, when seeing no hope <editorial addition in Doriath> {Gwendelin and her companions}[Melain] fared with the utmost speed out of that land of sorrow, even to the {kingdom of i- Guilwarthon in Hisilome}[land of Dor Firn-i-Guinar in Ossirand], where reigned Beren and Tinuviel her daughter. Now Beren and Tinúviel lived not in any settled abode, nor had their realm boundaries well-marked, and no other messenger save {Gwendelin daughter of the Vali}[Melian the Maia] had of a surety found those twain the living-dead so soon.> RD-EX-70 <TN Indeed the tale tells that even as that host of {the Orcs} [dwarves] were burning all the land of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and{ the Nauglath and the Indrafangin} were wending homeward burdened utterly with spoils of gold and precious things, came {Huan} [Melian] to Beren's lodge, and it was dusk. Lo, Beren sat upon a tree root and Tinúviel danced on a green sward in the gloaming as he gazed upon her, when suddenly stood {Huan}[Melian] before them, and Beren gave a cry of joy and wonder, {for it was long since he and Huan had hunted together,} {But}[but] Tinúviel looking upon {Huan} [her mother] saw that {he bled} [she wept], and there was a tale to read in {his great }[her] eyes. And {she}Tinúviel said suddenly: ‘What evil then has fallen upon {Artanor}[Doriath]?’ and {Huan} [Melian] said: ‘Fire and death and{ the terror of Orcs; but} Thingol is slain.’>

§45 & §46a (§30) <TN Then did both Beren and Tinúviel weep bitter tears; nor did the full tale{ of Huan} dry … towards him from{ every} glade and coppice, stream and fell.>

§46b (§31) <TN Now not even Beren knew the tale of those{ myriad} folk that followed his horn in the woods of{ Hisilome}[Ossiriand], and or ever the moon was high above the hills {the host}[a small company] assembled in the glade of his abiding {was very}[seemed him] great[ enough], yet were … seeking news of the march of the Dwarves{ and Indrafangs}, but at dawn he followed at the head of the green Elves, RD-EX-71 <Sil77 and summoning to him Dior his son he left Tol Galen and they went north to the River Ascar.> {and}But Tinúviel abode in the glade and wept unto herself for the death of [Thingol]{Tinwelint, and Gwendelin also she mourned as dead}.>

§46c (§32) <TN Now is to tell that the laden host of the Dwarves fared from the place of their ransacking, and Naugladur was at their head>. RD-EX-72 <TN {Now tells the tale that}And he fell in with the rangers of Beren's folk, and these gaining{ from him} sure knowledge of all the host and array of Naugladur and the ways he purposed to follow, they sped back like wind among the trees unto their lord;{ but Ufedhin … safe word,} and he set a trap for Naugladur. RD-EX-73 { No longer did he march hotly on the trail of the Dwarves, but knowing} Knowing that they would essay the passage of the river {Aros}[Duin Dear] at a certain time he turned aside, faring swiftly with his light-footed Elves by straighter paths that he might reach {Sarnathrod}[Athrod Dear] the {Stony}[Great] Ford before them. Now the {Aros}[Duin Dear] is a fierce stream RD-EX-74 { - and is it not that very water that more near its spring runs swiftly past the aged doors of the Rodothlim's caves and the dark lairs of Glorund' -} and in those lower regions … in haste to reach Nogrod and its dark caverns{, for the Dwarves list not long to abide in the bright light of day}.>

§46d (§33) <TN Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Duin Dear], and … halls; and behind these was Naugladur{, and he bestrode Tinwelint's horse, … laden with spoil}. But behind {these}him came again a mass of armed men but little laden; and in this array they sought to cross {Sarnathrod}[Athrod Dear] on their day of doom.>

§46e (§34) <TN Morn was it … Now did Naugladur{ slip from his burdened horse and }prepare to get him over, for the armed … resting awhile.>

§46f (§35) <TN Suddenly {is}was all that place filled with the sound of elfin horns, and one {...}[brayed] with a clearer blast above the rest, and {it is}that was the horn of Beren, the huntsman of the woods. Then {is}was the air thick with the … into the currents of the {Aros}[Duin Dear], staining its clear waters with their dark blood.>

§47 (§36) <TN Now were the warriors on the far bank {[? }wrapped{]} in battle and rallying sought to come at their foes, but these fled nimbly before them> RD-EX-75 <Sil77 eastwards towards the mountains. And as {they climbed the long slopes beneath Mount Dolmed}<editorial change the Dwarves entered the woods on the further bank> there came forth the Shepherds of the Trees, and they drove the Dwarves into the shadowy woods of Ered Lindon: whence, it is said, came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes.> RD-EX-76 <TN Now was that {great }fight of the {Stony}[Great] Ford{ ......} nigh to Naugladur>. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; {and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain,} and well nigh all their host{.}[ were slain,] RD-EX-77 <TN for even though Naugladur and his captains led their bands stoutly never might they grip their foe, and death fell like rain upon their ranks until the most part broke and fled>.

§48 (§37) <TN But now stood Naugladur and few were about him, and he remembered the words of {Gwendelin}[Melian], for behold, Beren came towards him and he RD-EX-78 {cast aside his bow}<editorial edition based on UT gave the Bow of Bregor, that he had used, to Dior>, and drew a bright sword; and Beren was of great stature{ among the Eldar}, albeit not of the girth and breadth of Naugladur of the Dwarves.>

§49 (§38) <TN Then said Beren: ‘Ward thy life an … all should stay their hands.>

§50 (§39) <TN Now little doth the tale tell of wounds and blows of that affray, save that Beren got many hurts therein, and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his {dwarfen}[dwarven] mail; and it is said that … ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Men], and his folk will … But the body of Naugladur was cast into the {Aros}[Duin Dear].>

§51a (§40) <TN Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it - and beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained undying glory by his deed; and he said: ‘Never have mine eyes beheld thee O Lamp of {Faery}[Fëanor] burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold and gems and the magic of the Dwarves’; and that necklace he caused to be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its power, but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand].> RD-SL-27 <Sil77And when all was finished the treasure of Doriath was drowned in the River Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, Rathlóriel, the Goldenbed.>

§51b (§41) RD-EX-79 <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on for ever above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung], and so do still, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now is the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none seek the treasure that {it}[Ascar] guards [near by] nor dare ever to cross the{ magic} stream[of Duin Dear] at that enchanted place.

§51c (§42) But Beren took the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril{;}. RD-EX-80 <TN {But}And in the vales of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] was there gladness at the homecoming of the Elves, and great was the joy of Tinuviel to see her lord once more returning amidst his {companies}[company], but little did it ease her grief … those days of travail in the wild>, and it is said and sung that Lúthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor{, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light}.

§ 51d (§43) RD-EX-81 <TN Now hearing {the cries of Ufedhin Gwendelin}[of Berens return Melain] looked in wonder{ after him, and stayed her tender words; and memory came back into her eyes so that}[, and] she cried as in amaze beholding the Necklace of the Dwarves that hung about the white throat of Tinúviel. Then wrathfully she asked of Beren what it might portend, and wherefore he suffered the accursed thing to touch Tinúviel; {and}[then] told Beren all that tale {such as Huan had told him, in deed or guess, and} of the pursuit and fighting at the ford{ he told also},saying at the end: ‘Nor indeed do I see who, now that Lord {Tinwelint}[Thingol] is fared to Valinor, should so fittingly wear that jewel of the {Gods}[Valar] as Tinúviel.’ But {Gwendelin}[Melian] told of the dragon's ban upon the gold and the {[? }staining{]} of blood in the king's halls, ‘and yet another … as it burnt the {[? }foul{]} flesh of {Karkaras}[Carcharoth]. ‘Nor,’ said he, ‘have I seen … that is the work of baleful smiths indeed.’>

§ 51e (§44) <TN Then said Tinúviel that … would not suffer it to be flung away, but warded it in his [treasury].>

§51f (§45) Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathloriel, Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.}<movedfrom above, and{ that} for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the {Gods}[Valar], and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
RD-SL-30{And in time the brief hour of the loveliness of the land of Rathloriel departed. For Lúthien faded as Mandos had spoken, even as the Elves of later days faded, when Men waxed strong and usurped the goodness of the earth; and she vanished from the world; and Beren died, and none know where their meeting shall be again. Yet it hath been sung that Lúthien alone of Elves hath been numbered among our race, and goeth whither we go to a fate beyond the world.}

§ 52a (§46) RD-SL-29 <Sil77 Now Dior Thingol's heir bade farewell to Beren and Lúthien, and departing … set himself to raise anew the glory of the kingdom of Doriath.>

§ 52b (§47) RD-SL-30 <Sil77 There came a night of autumn, and … go the race of Men to a fate beyond the world.>

§52c (§48) RD-EX-82 Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of … sons of Fëanor. For Dior {went back to } RD-SL-31 <TY with the power of the Silmaril {restores}[restored]> Doriath and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, and she departed to the land of the {Gods}[Valar] beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.

§56a (§49) But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. RD-EX-83 <TN Yet{yet} is it to tell that bitterness entered into the hearts of the{ seven} sons of Fëanor, remembering their oath. Now {Maidros}[Maedhros], whom {Melko}[Morgoth] maimed, was their leader; and he called to his brethren Maglor{ and Dinithel}, and to {Damrod}[Amrod, and to Celegorm, to {Cranthor}[Caranthir] and to Curufin the Crafty{,}.> For while Lúthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even {Maidros}[Celegorm] dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the {seven}[brothers] gathered again from wandering{; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain and his young sons Eldun and Elrun}. RD-EX-84 <TN And Celegrom {and he} said to them how it was now known to him that a Silmaril of those their father Fëanor had made was now the pride and glory of Dior of the{ southern} vales[ of Doriath], ‘and Elwing his daughter bears it whitherso she goes - but do you not forget,’ said he, ‘that we swore to have no peace with {Melko}[Morgoth] nor any of his folk, nor with any other of Earth-dwellers that held the Silmarils of Fëanor from us. For what,’ said {Maidros}[Celegrom], ‘do we suffer exile and wandering and rule over a scant and forgotten folk, if others gather to their hoard the heirlooms that are ours?’>

§56b (§50) RD-SL-32 But <TY {Maidros}[Maedhros] restrains his brethren.> RD-EX-85 <TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him … Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, {nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko} – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,<[b]editorial addition[/u] where this had come from,>’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’>RD-EX-86 <TY [Thus he returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./>

§57 & §58a (§51) RD-EX-87 <TN Then went Curufin unto his brethren, RD-SL-32.5 <TY and {Celegorn}[Celegorm] {inflames}inflamed the brethren,> and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk RD-EX-88{, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalie for their sufferings}. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon RD-SL-33{Dior}><TY the east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}was slain, RD-EX-89 <TY {There}there fell also {Celegorn}[Celegorm] (by Dior's hand) {and Curufin and Cranthir.}>,RD-SL-34 Q30 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again. RD-EX-90 <TN {yet}Yet behold, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth{ a Gnome}<Sil77 faithful servant>, took {her }<TY {The}the Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth]{ escaped} with Elwing> unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and they came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but> RD-EX-91 <TY the{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegrom] seized Dior's sons ({Elrun and Eldun}[Eluréd and Elurín]) and {leave}left them to starve in the forest.> RD-EX-92 <Sil77 Of this Maedhros later indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing.>RD-EX-93 <TY (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir[iand].)>

§58b (§52) RD-SL-35 <TN A {a} host of Dior's folk, coming with all speed yet late unto the fray, fell suddenly on {their}the rear of the host of the sons of Fëanor, and there was a great battle, {and Maglor was slain with swords, and Mai.... died of wounds in the wild,} and {Celegorm}[Curufin] was pierced with a hundred arrows, and {Cranthor}[Caranthir] beside him. Yet in the end were the sons of Fëanor masters of the field of slain, and the {brown}[grey] Elves{ and the green} were scattered over all the lands unhappy, for they would not hearken to {Maidros}[Maedhros] the maimed, nor to {Curufin}[Maglor] and {Damrod}[Amrod] who had slain their lord>.

§58c (§53) RD-EX-94 <TN Now was naught left of the seed of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion] son of {Egnor}[Barahir] save Elwing the Lovely, and she wandered in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to her>. RD-SL-36 Q30 {Yet the sons of Feanor gained not the Silmaril; for faithful servants fled before them and took with them Elwing the daughter of Dior, and she escaped, and they bore with them the Nauglamír, and came}And in time <TY hearing the rumour /that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens/>RD-EX-95 <TN they departed for ever from the glades of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand] and got them to the south towards Sirion's deep waters, and the pleasant lands. And thus did all the fates of the fairies weave then to one strand, and that strand is the great tale of {Earendel}[Eärendil].
I don't think that I will open the discussion on these version. I hope someone else we do so.

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Old 12-07-2004, 11:46 PM   #6
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There are several instances in which you used Duin Dear instead of Duin Daer.

Quote:
§46f (§35) <TN Suddenly {is}was all that place filled with the sound of {elfin}[elvish] horns, and one
As noted before.

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§50 (§39) <TN Now little doth the tale tell of wounds and blows of that affray, save that Beren got many hurts therein, and many of his shrewdest blows did little harm to Naugladur by reason of the {[?}skill{]} and magic of his {dwarfen}[dwarven] mail; and it is said that three hours they fought and Beren's arms grew weary, but not those of Naugladur accustomed to wield his mighty hammer at the forge, and it is more than like that otherwise would the issue have been but for the curse of Mîm; for marking how Beren grew faint Naugladur pressed him ever more nearly, and the arrogance that was of that grievous spell came into his heart, and he thought: ‘I will slay this {Elf}[Men],
It should be Man and not men me thinks.

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§ 51d (§43) RD-EX-81 <TN Now hearing {the cries of Ufedhin Gwendelin}[of Beren’s return Melain]
You missed the apostrophe.

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But Beren {laughed}[answered], saying that the glory of the Silmaril and its holiness might overcome all such evils,
To me, it would seem disrespectful if Beren laughed at Melian. I would rather say answered.

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§ 51e (§44) <TN Then said Tinúviel that she desired not things of worth or precious stones but the {elfin}[elvish]
ibid.

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§56b (§50) RD-SL-32 But <TY Maedhros restrain{s}[ed] his brethren.> RD-EX-85 <TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the Nauglamír, fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the Nauglamír unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, {nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko} – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,<editorial addition[/u] where this had come from,>’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’>[b]RD-EX-86 <TY {[Thus he returned] {Dior returns} no /clear/ answer /to their claim./}>
I would change the tense of the verb to restrain to the past tense. I would deleted the bold part because if Dior waxed wroth, bidding him be gone, I would assume that there is no way that Dior would give the sons of Fëanor the silmaril.

Quote:
§57 & §58a (§51) RD-EX-87 <TN Then went Curufin unto his brethren, RD-SL-32.5 <TY and Celegorm {inflames}inflamed the brethren,> and because of their unbreakable oath and of their [{?} thirst] for that Silmaril (nor indeed was the spell of Mîm and of the dragon wanting) they planned war upon Dior - and the Eldar cry shame upon them for that deed, the first premeditated war of {elfin}[elven] folk upon {elfin}[elven] folk RD-EX-88{, whose name otherwise were glorious among the Eldalie for their sufferings}. Little good came thereby to them; for they fell unawares upon RD-SL-33{Dior}><TY the east marches of Doriath>, and Dior{ and Auredhir were}was slain, RD-EX-89 <TY {There}there fell also Celegorm (by Dior's hand) {and Curufin and Cranthir.}>,RD-SL-34 Q30 and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again. RD-EX-90 <TN {yet}Yet behold {, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth{ a Gnome}<Sil77 faithful servant>, took {her }<TY {The}}the Lady Nimloth escaped with Elwing> {unwilling} in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and they came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the Nauglamír, so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not;
I would remove the bold parts because are the names Evranin and Gereth valid in actual Sindarin? Also if the mother of Elwing took her and they were under attack, one would assume that she would go willingly with her mother.

Quote:
§58c (§53) RD-EX-94 <TN Now was naught left of the seed of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion] son of {Egnor}[Barahir] save Elwing the Lovely, and she [along with Nimloth] wandered in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to her>.
I added the part in bold because of the previous change that Elwing fled with her mother.

Quote:
And thus did all the fates of the {fairies}[elves] weave then to one strand, and that strand is the great tale of Eärendil.
fairies should be elves me thinks.
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Old 12-08-2004, 09:54 AM   #7
Findegil
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Dear -> Daer: Oops, seemed an systymatical typo of mine. Corrected for the next version.

§51d laughed -> answered: But it was equally disrespectfull for Beren to laughed at his mother in law in TN than it is in our version. So why should we change it? Okay, Melain is now a bit more of a respected figure through out, but that does not change the disrespectfullnis of Beren in this scene so much for me. I see it more like a mark of the cruse of the Nauglamír (and the Silamril) that he begins to value his own thoughts above that of Melian.

§56b If "Dior waxed wroth" does not fit together with <TY [Thus he returned] {Dior returns} no answer /to their claim./> we have to remove the fisrt phrase since the second is later. The § was a kind of an experiment, if "Dior waxed wroth" and the answer "if you like to have a Silmaril go to Angband" would fit with the "no answer of TY. But it seemed it will not fit and thus we should go back to:
Quote:
§56b (§50) RD-SL-32 But <TY {Maidros}[Maedhros] {restrains}restrained his brethren.> RD-EX-85 <TN Thus was it that they sent Curufin the Crafty to Dior, and told him of their oath, and bid him give that fair jewel back unto those whose right it was; but Dior gazing on the loveliness of Elwing would not do so, and he said that he could not endure that the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], fairest of earthly craft, be so despoiled. ‘Then,’ said Curufin, ‘must the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] unbroken be given to the sons of Fëanor,’ and Dior{ waxed wroth,} bidding him be gone, {nor dare to claim what his sire Beren the Onehanded won with his hand from the [?jaws] of Melko – ‘other twain are there in the selfsame place,’ said he, ‘an your hearts be bold enow.’}>RD-EX-86 <TY [returned] {Dior returns} no answer /to their claim./>

Quote:
§57 & §58a ... RD-EX-90 <TN {yet}Yet behold, Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth{ a Gnome}<Q30 faithful servant>, took {her }<TY {The}the Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth]{ escaped} with Elwing> unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and they came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but> RD-EX-91 <TY the{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegrom] seized Dior's sons ({Elrun and Eldun}[Eluréd and Elurín]) and {leave}left them to starve in the forest.> ...
Is the normal way to read the passage not that all the object of the action was unwilling? I at least would think that Nimloth were really unwilling to leave her young twin-sons behind.
If we want scip the names I would suggest to takeQ30 (sorry, I made a mistake with the source info there) and name them only faithful servants:
Quote:
§57 & §58a ... RD-EX-90 <TN {yet}Yet behold, {Evranin the nurse of Elwing, and Gereth a Gnome<Q30 faithful servants>, took {her }<TY {The}the Lady {Lindis}[Nimloth]{ escaped} with Elwing> unwilling in a flight swift and sudden from those lands, <TY and they came hardly to Ossir[iand]> and {they} bore with them the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], so that the sons of Fëanor saw it not; but> RD-EX-91 <TY the{The} cruel servants of {Celegorn seize}[Celegrom] seized Dior's sons ({Elrun and Eldun}[Eluréd and Elurín]) and {leave}left them to starve in the forest.> ...
§58c TY provides the information that Nimloth was the driving force in all the later action (which is to be expected since Elwing was a child of only 4). I missed that point an thought that we were not told that Nimloth went to the havens at all. But now I think we have to change it, and I like your suggestion, but would change the order to:
Quote:
§58c (§53) RD-EX-94 <TN Now was naught left of the seed of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion] son of {Egnor}[Barahir] save Elwing the Lovely, and she wandered <editorial addition along with Nimloth> in the woods, and of the {brown}[grey] Elves and the green a few gathered to {her}them.> ...
Respectfully
Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 12-08-2004 at 10:00 AM.
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