A Probably too Sympathetic View of Gríma - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 07-25-2004, 03:03 AM

I think that Grima didn't appreciate honour nor sincerity but was very fascinated by power and was eager to rule. That doesn't instantly make him a bad person but yet too easily seduced by slight chances to rise in rank. To Saruman that kind of people would have been too easy to brainwash. Saruman used Grima to gain his own goals but I tend to think that Grima acted willingly and knowing the cosequences.

In the book, after Isengard had been defeated and Saruman and Grima were just two vagabonds, Grima told that he hated Saruman and yet he didn't leave him. He didn't know how to live without his master anymore for sure a wizard had been a mighty ally before things started to go bad for them.
So, to the question: basically yes, that's possible.

07-25-2004, 07:34 PM

I think Grima just started out as someone who saw an advantage allying himself with the stroger power of Saruman, and then he was in it for himself - how can I best profit from the situation. I did not think that Grima was evil to start with, he was just corrupted by power and greed. When he had been turned out of Edoras and returned to Saruman, his will was all but broken and at this point he became a creature of Saruman, yet retaining enough of his personality to regail against the treatment he endured but not strong enough to escape.

Son of Númenor · 07-25-2004, 08:21 PM

Wormtongue is an interesting character, in that he is unlike most other evil beings in Middle-earth. He is not desirous of omnipotence, as are Melkor, Sauron and Saruman. He was not forcibly subverted to the will of a powerful evil being, like the orcs were. He is more like Sharkey's ruffians, Sauron's mercernaries and even Melkor's Balrogs, in that he is corrupted (not by torture, like the orcs, but by persuasion and false promises) to the service of a true evil, and is mainly in it for personal gain. I think Tolkien saw a distinction between characters like Master Wormtongue and the 'greater' evils. Grima, I think, was still capable of repentance, and he did repent, to an extent, in killing Saruman. I do not think he was ever wholly 'fallen', and I do not see why he could not have loved Eowyn. He may have lusted after her, but lust does not necessarily supersede true affection. Perhaps he was greatly conflicted: wanting her for himself, wanting her to be happy, and being ensnared by Saruman, from whose scheme he could no longer escape and, being corrupt, no longer had a will to try. Sounds like quite a sad predicament.

Lhunardawen · 07-25-2004, 08:38 PM

There seems to be a lot of Grima threads these days...

The act of Grima killing Saruman in The Scouring of the Shire is rather ambiguous. It could be that he already had the will to be free from the evil in which he had been ensnared by Saruman, and killed him so that he could be altogether released from his bondage to evil. But on the other hand, he could be tired of being Saruman's underdog and killed him so he could be his own master, possibly not aware of the fact that he could be killed by the hobbits in doing so.

It was probably the first idea that moved him to kill Saruman. Frodo was offering him a way out, and he probably felt he could not accept that way with Saruman still around. Then again, seeing that he tried to run away after killing him, it could be the latter idea. All the same, his death was grievous, for while he is yet alive there is a chance for him to finally turn his back from evil.

Encaitare · 07-26-2004, 11:15 AM

Quote:

"There seems to be a lot of Grima threads these days..." -- Lhunardawen

And I like it! Hah... does my avatar give ya a clue?

Yes, it's probably too sympathetic (although the sneaky guy has permeated my mind and I've corrupted my friend as well into thinking he's awesome... man, he does his job well!) but he's such a fun character to analyze. I like Gorthaur_Cruel's take on him. Somehow I've come to think that he had a really lousy childhood (it's the Freud in me speaking!) and has just grown up quite bitter towards everyone.

He probably fell victim to Saruman, a) because the wizard was noted to have great powers of persuasion and an enchanting voice, and b) because he was promised wealth and the woman he desired (I won't go into the love/lust bit here!). As others have already stated, Men are generally weak and power-hungry, and while I don't think that Grima wanted to be king of Rohan or anything (although he was as good as king for some time), it's likely that he wouldn't mind having a bit of influence and power for himself.

Silver Dragon · 07-26-2004, 01:11 PM

Um, I have some questions about some of the answers, sorry...

Quote:

He was to feed Theoden some poison-like things that kept him weak and frail(I was rather skeptical about the poisonous drugs, but Tolkien confirmed this in one of his letters).

Could someone tell me where to find these? And also...

Quote:

He is more like Sharkey's ruffians, Sauron's mercernaries and even Melkor's Balrogs, in that he is corrupted (not by torture, like the orcs, but by persuasion and false promises) to the service of a true evil, and is mainly in it for personal gain.

Weren't the Balrogs created to serve Morgoth? Did they have to be seduced/persuaded to evil? Or weren't they just inherently sided with darkness? I don't remember his other creatures, dragons and the like, doing anything else...and as for Wormtounge...was it really still possible for him to repent? In many stories, as they say "a man can't possibly be so evil as to be unable to repent"...but in Tolkien, the only instance I've read of in which a creature/servant of darkness "saw the light" was when Sauron/Gorthaur appealed to Eonwe after the fall of Thangorodrim, and it's still debatable as to whether or not he truly repented. He certainly didn't try to seek Manwe's good favors when told to, did he?

Son of Númenor · 07-26-2004, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Weren't the Balrogs created to serve Morgoth? Did they have to be seduced/persuaded to evil?

They were originally Maiar. Melkor seduced and corrupted them.

Elianna · 07-27-2004, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Dragon

and as for Wormtounge...was it really still possible for him to repent?

I think it was. I'm thinking that Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman, Balrogs and such were all Maiar (Vala, in the case of Morgoth), and so repentence works differently for them (if at all). But Gríma is a Man, which as many have pointed out, is a very corruptable race. Knowing this, the Powers that be would provide an easier way to forgiveness for Men: you just ask, and try to do better next time.

Come on, have we learned nothing of pity or mercy from reading Tolkien?

07-25-2004, 03:03 AM	#1
dancing spawn of ungoliant Mischievous Candle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam. Posts: 1,234	I think that Grima didn't appreciate honour nor sincerity but was very fascinated by power and was eager to rule. That doesn't instantly make him a bad person but yet too easily seduced by slight chances to rise in rank. To Saruman that kind of people would have been too easy to brainwash. Saruman used Grima to gain his own goals but I tend to think that Grima acted willingly and knowing the cosequences. In the book, after Isengard had been defeated and Saruman and Grima were just two vagabonds, Grima told that he hated Saruman and yet he didn't leave him. He didn't know how to live without his master anymore for sure a wizard had been a mighty ally before things started to go bad for them. So, to the question: basically yes, that's possible. __________________ Fenris Wolf

07-25-2004, 07:34 PM	#2
shia'tan Guest Posts: n/a	I think Grima just started out as someone who saw an advantage allying himself with the stroger power of Saruman, and then he was in it for himself - how can I best profit from the situation. I did not think that Grima was evil to start with, he was just corrupted by power and greed. When he had been turned out of Edoras and returned to Saruman, his will was all but broken and at this point he became a creature of Saruman, yet retaining enough of his personality to regail against the treatment he endured but not strong enough to escape.

07-25-2004, 08:21 PM	#3
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 515	Wormtongue is an interesting character, in that he is unlike most other evil beings in Middle-earth. He is not desirous of omnipotence, as are Melkor, Sauron and Saruman. He was not forcibly subverted to the will of a powerful evil being, like the orcs were. He is more like Sharkey's ruffians, Sauron's mercernaries and even Melkor's Balrogs, in that he is corrupted (not by torture, like the orcs, but by persuasion and false promises) to the service of a true evil, and is mainly in it for personal gain. I think Tolkien saw a distinction between characters like Master Wormtongue and the 'greater' evils. Grima, I think, was still capable of repentance, and he did repent, to an extent, in killing Saruman. I do not think he was ever wholly 'fallen', and I do not see why he could not have loved Eowyn. He may have lusted after her, but lust does not necessarily supersede true affection. Perhaps he was greatly conflicted: wanting her for himself, wanting her to be happy, and being ensnared by Saruman, from whose scheme he could no longer escape and, being corrupt, no longer had a will to try. Sounds like quite a sad predicament.

07-25-2004, 08:38 PM	#4
Lhunardawen Hauntress of the Havens Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IN it, but not OF it Posts: 2,538	There seems to be a lot of Grima threads these days... The act of Grima killing Saruman in The Scouring of the Shire is rather ambiguous. It could be that he already had the will to be free from the evil in which he had been ensnared by Saruman, and killed him so that he could be altogether released from his bondage to evil. But on the other hand, he could be tired of being Saruman's underdog and killed him so he could be his own master, possibly not aware of the fact that he could be killed by the hobbits in doing so. It was probably the first idea that moved him to kill Saruman. Frodo was offering him a way out, and he probably felt he could not accept that way with Saruman still around. Then again, seeing that he tried to run away after killing him, it could be the latter idea. All the same, his death was grievous, for while he is yet alive there is a chance for him to finally turn his back from evil.