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#1 | |||||||||
Beloved Shadow
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If he (as Gandalf said) thought it was destroyed and had not met his doom why would he know it was his doom when he sensed Frodo at the Cracks? Why would he think someone had destroyed it and also think someone wouldn't destroy it? So far, the only way my fellow downers have been able to answer these questions involves making Sauron somewhat (or extremely) ignorant about his own creation, his ultimate weapon, his precious. The Ring wasn't some other guy he imprisoned inside of a wedding band; the Ring was a part of him. The Ring's 'body' and 'spirit' were created by Sauron. Making him clueless about the Ring seems to me even more improbable than making the good guys clueless about Sauron. Doesn't the latter seem more plausible to anyone, or am I alone? Maybe everyone hates to see the good guys brought down a peg? Quote:
![]() But don't worry, I get your point. Quote:
And within the framework, my theory seems possible (more possible to me than Sauron not understanding his own Ring). Quote:
So how do we know the second was indeed the "full picture", since Gandalf has set a precedent for stating things that were not proven. Do we know if anyone ever had the full picture, even at the end? Quote:
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If not, oh well. It's not like I've never had an unpopular opinion. ![]()
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the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important. Last edited by the phantom; 07-15-2004 at 01:25 PM. |
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#2 | |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
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#3 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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![]() And neither was Sauron clueless. As has been said, despite imbuing the Ring with part of his own will, he had no way of knowing exactly what would happen if it were to be destroyed. Indeed, the Ring almost certainly didn't know itself (although obviously it was keen to prevent this situation occurring). Again, he could only act on the information available to him at any given time, although, in Sauron's case, his actions were constrained by his blind-spot when it came to assessing the motives and qualities of his opponents.
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 07-16-2004 at 02:37 AM. |
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#4 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I must say this is a very interesting thread. I can see both sides, but I would have to agree with Saucepan Man.
When Frodo was in the cracks of Mount Doom, Sauron realized his peril at that precise moment. This is ME fact if you hold Tolkien as all-knowing; though, as Legolas pointed out, Tolkien is susceptible to our mortal failings in writing. Sauron did not realize it before because he was blinded by his inability to recognize the possibility of enough humility in others to attempt to destroy the Ring. He knew his danger at that point, perhaps - IMHO - the same way we know someone is watching us behind our backs; in other words, a hunch, or something like it. Going back to the First Alliance of Elves and Men, when Isildur cut the finger wearing the Ring off Sauron, Sauron was greatly crippled. He would have assumed that, being in the right place and with the knowledge (perhaps not on Isildur's part, but certainly on the part of the other leaders) that the Ring was extremely dangerous, they would have destroyed the Ring. It was, after all, the wisest thing to do. However - and I know I'm repeating someone else who posted on this thread here - Sauron found that he was not completely recovered. Still under the impression that the Ring had been destroyed, he would have assumed that it had not been as important as he'd thought, being the only conclusion he could come to, as the concept of the Ring not being destroyed had not yet occured to him. When Sauron eventually discovered that the Ring had not in fact been destroyed, he would have then formed the conclusion that if Isildur and co. had not destroyed the ring when they had the best chance possible, no one had the will to destroy it. In other words, if some of the best men/elves had not contained the will to destroy it when they knew that would be the wisest course, then surely lesser men would not have that same will. Conclusion: no one would/could destroy the Ring. My sister is begging me to get off the computer and severely breaking my concentration, so I shall sign off at this point. Cheers, ~ Elentari II P.S. I said I'd edit this post, but I've decided against it. So this post will stay as it is...
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Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit ------------~~~~~~~~~~~~~------------ A laita Atar, ar Yondo, ar Ainasule. Ve nes i yessesse na sin, ar yeva tennoio. Nasie. Last edited by Bekah; 07-16-2004 at 05:31 PM. |
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#5 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours.
Posts: 274
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Also, one could easily write this 'cluelessness' away as being a slight discrepancy in the text, which of course is meant to have been written after the incidents as a tale (the Red Book) - embellished perhaps, worded for dramatic effect perhaps? However, this would bring up a really pointless argument about not being able to rely on the facts anywhere then, as it was relayed and written by the hobbits and scribes of Gondor...
If anyone were to even think about using this argument, they truly must be insane! (Um... but Osse... QUIET YOU!) <Oh no... not another canonocity discussion.> Sauron was a very powerful, guilly individual, certainly not thick , nor for that matter were any of the character in opposition to him...I agree there are portions of contradictory or unreliable text, however, if one were truly podantic, one could find such loopholes throughout any author's works. If one were in a nasty mood, one could take these loops and twist them to form a noose around itself, ruining the piece for everyone, or on the other hand, one could take what is written in justified light, and explain it using other instances and your general good sense!
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'A thinking tyrant, it seemed to Vetinari, had a much harder job than a ruler raised to power by some idiot system like democracy. At least HE could tell the people he was THEIR fault.' |
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#6 | |
The Kinslayer
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I doesn't get any more clueless than that! Why did he have to wait all that time for? Also when Isildur took Sauron's ring, Elrond and Co. just said, well ok, and that was it. And with Sauron believing that his ring was destroyed, if I recall correclty, in LOTR I have never read that Sauron said that (I don't think that I have seen Sauron having a dialogue in there). All that we have is the thoughts from the good guys about Sauron. I believe that the good guys won from sheer luck. They didn't have a brilliant strategy planned. They knew that Sauron could not be defeated with armies and they could not use the ring against him. The good guys strategy was to have Frodo go and destroy the Ring, but he was unable to throw it into his little fire in Bag End. What if Gollum instead of falling into the fire had run out and was taken over by a Nazgûl?
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"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy." |
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#7 | |||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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