Good guys of LOTR clueless?

[the phantom]

when he repaired for a good long time to the dark recesses of the world, must have believed that his injury was resultant upon the Ring's destruction, not merely the severing of himself from it

As jet any such defeat had seen him recover soon, but know he had much more trouble to do that

But wasn't Sauron seperated from his Ring when he was in Numenor? I seem to remember a quote saying when he got back home he "took up his Ring again" or something like that. So it's not like Sauron didn't know what it felt like to be without his Ring. Yeah, the recovery was more difficult without the Ring, but surely he realized that the Ring was still somewhere since he was able to recover.

For all Sauron (or anyone else) knew, destroying the Ring could have ushered in a new age of...oh, let's say, Orc cotillions.

Judging from this and other comments I guess people really do think that Sauron didn't know jack about his Ring. I just have a difficult time believing this, particularly that he had no clue what its destruction would do to him.

If he (as Gandalf said) thought it was destroyed and had not met his doom why would he know it was his doom when he sensed Frodo at the Cracks?

Why would he think someone had destroyed it and also think someone wouldn't destroy it?

So far, the only way my fellow downers have been able to answer these questions involves making Sauron somewhat (or extremely) ignorant about his own creation, his ultimate weapon, his precious. The Ring wasn't some other guy he imprisoned inside of a wedding band; the Ring was a part of him. The Ring's 'body' and 'spirit' were created by Sauron.

Making him clueless about the Ring seems to me even more improbable than making the good guys clueless about Sauron. Doesn't the latter seem more plausible to anyone, or am I alone?

Maybe everyone hates to see the good guys brought down a peg?

One doesn't even have to read the statement that follows to see the discrepancy in your own assertions - the quote that follows was written after the writing and publishing of Lord of the Rings. Any writings from before your quote cannot be expected to totally line up with the quote itself. They may loosely, but it could be (and may very well be) that Tolkien had changed his perspective on the matter (not necessarily a 180-degree change, but still a change). Such a development in thought is bound to cause some "discrepancies" with earlier writings.

Well dang, Legolas, I guess we shouldn't ever bring up The Sil, HoME, LOTR, The Hobbit, or any other Tolkien book when we're talking about another book, since he didn't write them all at the same exact time.

But don't worry, I get your point.

The 'discrepancies' you point out and attribute to characters in the story are obviously points that should be attributed more to the author. More than likely, it's the author who was writing the book as he went.

That seems like too easy of a way to get out of this. I mean, it's true when you disagree with something or dislike a notion you can always say "Well, this isn't real, there was an author involved and they made a mistake", but I'm trying hard to keep this within the framework of Middle-Earth.

And within the framework, my theory seems possible (more possible to me than Sauron not understanding his own Ring).

The difference between the two statements can be explained by the passage of time. Gandalf had found out a lot between those scenes. Gandalf wasn't stupid; there was simply very little to go on in the beginning. Over the course of that first volume is where the story begins fittingly - as the plans of Sauron begin to unravel and Gandalf now has enough to see the full picture.

That's very true, Legolas, but it doesn't take away from what I'm saying. You see, Gandalf's first and second statements were both communicated as fact. At the beginning when he didn't see the full picture (as you said) he presented his knowledge as fact. He didn't say "I believe" or "I think" or "It's likely". There was no difference in the presentation of the two statements.

So how do we know the second was indeed the "full picture", since Gandalf has set a precedent for stating things that were not proven.

Do we know if anyone ever had the full picture, even at the end?

To my mind Sauron is very powerful, but not very bright

Oh please. You're calling Sauron "not very bright"? I don't have my books with me, but I know I've read that he was studious, brilliant, and powerful. And Gandalf at the Council of Elrond calls Sauron "very wise". (then again, maybe Gandalf is mistaken again )

At the end, when Frodo stood at the Sammath Naur, & suspect that his reaction wasn't 'intellectual' - ie, that he realised his situation & his danger

That seems to go against what the book says-

for he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung

Well, I figured this theory would seem too anti-good guy to fly with most, but I'm surprised that there hasn't been anyone at all on the Downs that is willing to play along a bit and maybe has some thoughts or quotes that would go with it.

If not, oh well. It's not like I've never had an unpopular opinion.

[Legolas]

He didn't say "I believe" or "I think" or "It's likely". There was no difference in the presentation of the two statements.

Does he need to? It's always understood that there's an "as far as I know" implied with such a statement that's obviously his best guess for what's going on in the Dark Lord's mind. If you had asked Gandalf during the Shadow of the Past timeframe if Saruman was in hot pursuit of the Ring and 'joining' Sauron, I'm sure he would've dismissed the notion. Afterwards, at the Council of Elrond, his feelings would've been very different - he found out very much between these two instances, in terms of both Saruman's ill turn and Sauron's plans. About grasp of the 'full picture,' we don't know for certain until it's over (or almost over) - this is just a statement I make in retrospect, though it did seem to be case after a few chapters.

[The Saucepan Man]

Oh please. You're calling Sauron "not very bright"?

I certainly would not describe Sauron as thick. But there was a very significant defect in his intellect, and that was his inability to understand humility and sacrifice. For him, the desire for power was so great that he could not imagine that anyone, faced with the means of obtaining it in great measure, would not feel the same desire. Only at the end does he realise his folly. And that word, which is used in the passage from which your original quote comes, is a most appropriate one. For all his intelligence, he nevertheless showed great folly in severely underestimating the capacity of his opponents (particularly Gandalf and the Hobbits) to show great humility in the face of the opportunity to obtain great power.

Well, I figured this theory would seem too anti-good guy to fly with most, but I'm surprised that there hasn't been anyone at all on the Downs that is willing to play along a bit and maybe has some thoughts or quotes that would go with it.

Sorry, I would love to if I could. But by no means were the good guys clueless. All they could do was act on the information that they had at any given time, which was necessarily incomplete.

And neither was Sauron clueless. As has been said, despite imbuing the Ring with part of his own will, he had no way of knowing exactly what would happen if it were to be destroyed. Indeed, the Ring almost certainly didn't know itself (although obviously it was keen to prevent this situation occurring). Again, he could only act on the information available to him at any given time, although, in Sauron's case, his actions were constrained by his blind-spot when it came to assessing the motives and qualities of his opponents.

[Bekah]

I must say this is a very interesting thread. I can see both sides, but I would have to agree with Saucepan Man.

When Frodo was in the cracks of Mount Doom, Sauron realized his peril at that precise moment. This is ME fact if you hold Tolkien as all-knowing; though, as Legolas pointed out, Tolkien is susceptible to our mortal failings in writing.

Sauron did not realize it before because he was blinded by his inability to recognize the possibility of enough humility in others to attempt to destroy the Ring. He knew his danger at that point, perhaps - IMHO - the same way we know someone is watching us behind our backs; in other words, a hunch, or something like it.

Going back to the First Alliance of Elves and Men, when Isildur cut the finger wearing the Ring off Sauron, Sauron was greatly crippled. He would have assumed that, being in the right place and with the knowledge (perhaps not on Isildur's part, but certainly on the part of the other leaders) that the Ring was extremely dangerous, they would have destroyed the Ring. It was, after all, the wisest thing to do.

However - and I know I'm repeating someone else who posted on this thread here - Sauron found that he was not completely recovered. Still under the impression that the Ring had been destroyed, he would have assumed that it had not been as important as he'd thought, being the only conclusion he could come to, as the concept of the Ring not being destroyed had not yet occured to him.

When Sauron eventually discovered that the Ring had not in fact been destroyed, he would have then formed the conclusion that if Isildur and co. had not destroyed the ring when they had the best chance possible, no one had the will to destroy it. In other words, if some of the best men/elves had not contained the will to destroy it when they knew that would be the wisest course, then surely lesser men would not have that same will. Conclusion: no one would/could destroy the Ring.

My sister is begging me to get off the computer and severely breaking my concentration, so I shall sign off at this point.

Cheers,

~ Elentari II

P.S. I said I'd edit this post, but I've decided against it. So this post will stay as it is...

[Osse]

Also, one could easily write this 'cluelessness' away as being a slight discrepancy in the text, which of course is meant to have been written after the incidents as a tale (the Red Book) - embellished perhaps, worded for dramatic effect perhaps? However, this would bring up a really pointless argument about not being able to rely on the facts anywhere then, as it was relayed and written by the hobbits and scribes of Gondor...

If anyone were to even think about using this argument, they truly must be insane! (Um... but Osse... QUIET YOU!)

<Oh no... not another canonocity discussion.>


Sauron was a very powerful, guilly individual, certainly not thick , nor for that matter were any of the character in opposition to him...I agree there are portions of contradictory or unreliable text, however, if one were truly podantic, one could find such loopholes throughout any author's works.


If one were in a nasty mood, one could take these loops and twist them to form a noose around itself, ruining the piece for everyone, or on the other hand, one could take what is written in justified light, and explain it using other instances and your general good sense!

[Maédhros]

But by no means were the good guys clueless. All they could do was act on the information that they had at any given time, which was necessarily incomplete.

Well, Gandalf knew that Bilbo had a ring that made him invisible and he didn't bother to find out more about it.
I doesn't get any more clueless than that! Why did he have to wait all that time for?

Also when Isildur took Sauron's ring, Elrond and Co. just said, well ok, and that was it.

And with Sauron believing that his ring was destroyed, if I recall correclty, in LOTR I have never read that Sauron said that (I don't think that I have seen Sauron having a dialogue in there). All that we have is the thoughts from the good guys about Sauron.
I believe that the good guys won from sheer luck. They didn't have a brilliant strategy planned. They knew that Sauron could not be defeated with armies and they could not use the ring against him. The good guys strategy was to have Frodo go and destroy the Ring, but he was unable to throw it into his little fire in Bag End.
What if Gollum instead of falling into the fire had run out and was taken over by a Nazgûl?

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, Gandalf knew that Bilbo had a ring that made him invisible and he didn't bother to find out more about it. I doesn't get any more clueless than that! Why did he have to wait all that time for?

As I recall, he had his suspicions from the outset. But, as he says, many Elven Rings were made, some more powerful than others. What were the chances of this being the One Ring? And he had to be sure before taking any precipitous action. Which is why he spent most of the intervening years trying to make sure. In the meantime, he couldn't risk taking it into his own keeping or trying to dispose of it. At least while it was with Bilbo, he knew where it was.

Also when Isildur took Sauron's ring, Elrond and Co. just said, well ok, and that was it.

What do you expect them to have done? Thrown Isildur into the fire? (There is a thread on that somewhere.)

I believe that the good guys won from sheer luck. They didn't have a brilliant strategy planned.

But as you imply yourself, their strategy was the only one that had any hope of succeeding. Not much hope, as Gandalf admits, but then he did put his trust in providence.