Cellar Door

[piosenniel]

Thought you might like to see this:

The basic pleasure in the phonetic elements of a language and in the style of their patterns, and then in a higher dimension, pleasure in the association of these word-forms with meanings, is of fundamental importance. This pleasure is quite distinct from the practical knowledge of a language, and not the same as an analytic understanding of its structure. It is simpler, deeper-rooted, and yet more immediate than the enjoyment of literature. Thought it may be allied to some of the elements in the appreciation of verse, it does not need any poets, other than the nameless artists who composed the language. It can be strongly felt in the simple contemplation of vocabulary, or even in a string of names. ...Most English-speaking people, for instance, will admit that *cellar door* is 'beautiful,' especially if dissociated from its sense (and from its spelling). More beautiful that, say, *sky*, and far more beautiful than *beautiful*, Well then, in Welsh, for me *cellar doors* are extraordinarily frequent, and moving to the higher dimension, the words in which there is pleasure in the contemplation of the association of form and sense are abundant.

-- J.R.R. Tolkien "English and Welsh" (lecture, 10/21/55) published in - Angles and Britons: O'Donnell Lectures (1963) and reprinted in: The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays(1983) by J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by Christopher Tolkien

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

Now, what interests me is exactly why he considered "cellar door" to be such an illustrious phrase. It does sound quite nice, but I think we must consider the accent he was accustomed to - "cellar door" sounds much better to me as an Englishman would say it than with American pronuciation!

But how did he choose the phrase as an example? I don't suppose we'll ever know, really... and it would be hard to think of a particularly beatiful-sounding word or combination off the top of one's head. Yet I still wonder if there's some sort of a history to his choice.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

sounds much better to me as an Englishman would say it than with American pronuciation

Perhaps that's my problem... I find the only down side of being American is the "Americanization" of the English language. "I don't speak English, I speak American." Well, I say revert to English... it's a prettier language than the garble most people consider speech around here. That and MacDonalds... can't go anywhere without seeing gigantic, mustard yellow, arches glaring at me. But back to my point; how exactly would 'cellar door' be pronounced in English English? I didn't realize it would have that much difference...

Fea

[The Saucepan Man]

Well then, in Welsh, for me *cellar doors* are extraordinarily frequent ...

But wouldn't "cellar door" in Welsh (and indeed Elvish) be pronounced Kellar Door? Hmm, Celedor - a relative of Celeborn, perhaps?

That and MacDonalds... can't go anywhere without seeing gigantic, mustard yellow, arches glaring at me.

Alas, I think that you'll find that's the same the world over these days.

Well, I say revert to English... it's a prettier language than the garble most people consider speech around here.

Well you know what they say - the Americans and the English: a people divided by a common language.

OK, first lesson:

Garbage = Rubbish
Hood = Bonnet
Color = Colour
Sidewalk = Pavement
Apartment = Flat
Movie = Film
Theatre = Cinema

...

Hehe, I could go on for ever ...

[Lalaith]

Saucepan Man, I think Tolkien used "cellar door" there to describe a kind of generic moment of aural appreciation, and he meant that Welsh was full of those kind of 'moments'.
I rarely hear Welsh spoken, but I do love the accent. The English are generally rather snooty and unkind about the Welsh so I'm glad Tolkien sticks up for them.

Rimbaud - hehe, I know what you mean, I got all excited as soon as I saw the words 'cellar door' written on the blackboard...
Mirabella, I too spent some years thinking "seleborn" and "selebrian" to myself, when I read the books. I still find the hard C difficult to remember, particularly "kelebrian" which sounds a bit masculine to me.

[Lalaith]

Oh, and I did actually think of the Barrowdowns while watching the film, even before the 'cellar door' reference...when the school bans the Graham Greene story, I thought of the poor kids on here whose schools censor Tolkien, Harry Potter etc.

[The Saucepan Man]

Saucepan Man, I think Tolkien used "cellar door" there to describe a kind of generic moment of aural appreciation, and he meant that Welsh was full of those kind of 'moments'.

Doh! Sometimes I think that my attempts at (so-called) humour are entirely unsuitable for the internet format, smilies or no smilies. Sorry Lalaith, I did follow Tolkien's reasoning, but was just being impertinent.

The English are generally rather snooty and unkind about the Welsh so I'm glad Tolkien sticks up for them.

As someone with Welsh blood, and despite taking great pride in England, my country of birth, I'm with the Professor on that one.

[Lalaith]

*bows* No, it was me being slow on the uptake. Late night last night, you understand.