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#1 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The Encircling Sea, deciding which ship to ruin next...could be yours.
Posts: 274
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Good speculation on how Sauron percieved the power of his Ring to affect others Findegil!
Sauron could never really understand that his ring held more of a pull than just the desire for power, and that it in itself was what drew the person (basically) not just the power it gives. Like you say, why should he? All he knows is that it gives huge power, and that he desires the power... it is part of him remember. How then could he feel that anyone would possess the ring if they did not want the power associated with it? How could he possibly concieve that anyone would want to destroy it. His assumptions that whoever possessed it was just carrying it until it was given to a more powerful wielder, did not go without at least some justification. I can now sympathize with his reasoning, or more importantly lack thereof...
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#2 |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Great post, Findegil. Makes perfect sense to me.
As I see it, Sauron was judging others by his own standards and ascribing to them his own motives. He assumed that those who came into contact with the Ring would inevitably attempt to use it to gain power, rather than destroy it. And this assumption was not entirely unjustified in light of the behaviour of Saruman (one of the "wise"). His fear on perceiving Frodo with the Ring at Sammath Naur is occasioned by the sudden realisation that, if someone could make it all the way to Mount Doom with the Ring without having attempted to use it to gain power, then they might just be capable of destroying it. The passage refers to him suddenly realising the "magnitude of his own folly". In other words, it only occurred to him at that moment that his assumption that anyone bearing the Ring would inevitably try to use it to gain power might actually be incorrect. As matters turned out, he was right that (Bombadil excepted) no one could willingly destroy the Ring, but for the wrong reasons. As Findegil has pointed out, it disn't occur to him that the Ring could coerce someone to simply desire possession of it, without regard to enhancing their power, to such a degree that they would be incapable of destroying it. So, but for the intervention of "providence" he needn't have feared.
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#3 |
The Perilous Poet
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Heart of the matter
Posts: 1,062
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Quite, and I think Sauce has been striking proverbial nails on their teeny-tiny heads: Sauron was quite right. Excepting the chap with brightly-coloured boots, who doesn't really fit in with the rest anyway, nobody was capable of destroying the Ring. Nobody, deliberately, ever did so.
Further to Gandalf's quote regarding Sauron's belief in the Ring's destruction: it is clear that Sauron was sore wounded by the Ring-finger-smiting incident, and when he repaired for a good long time to the dark recesses of the world, must have believed that his injury was resultant upon the Ring's destruction, not merely the severing of himself from it. As has been ably described above, the realisation that this was not the case would have distinctly changed his outlook, and confirmed his prior belief that none could willingly destroy it afresh.
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And all the rest is literature |
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#4 | |||||||||
Beloved Shadow
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If he (as Gandalf said) thought it was destroyed and had not met his doom why would he know it was his doom when he sensed Frodo at the Cracks? Why would he think someone had destroyed it and also think someone wouldn't destroy it? So far, the only way my fellow downers have been able to answer these questions involves making Sauron somewhat (or extremely) ignorant about his own creation, his ultimate weapon, his precious. The Ring wasn't some other guy he imprisoned inside of a wedding band; the Ring was a part of him. The Ring's 'body' and 'spirit' were created by Sauron. Making him clueless about the Ring seems to me even more improbable than making the good guys clueless about Sauron. Doesn't the latter seem more plausible to anyone, or am I alone? Maybe everyone hates to see the good guys brought down a peg? Quote:
![]() But don't worry, I get your point. Quote:
And within the framework, my theory seems possible (more possible to me than Sauron not understanding his own Ring). Quote:
So how do we know the second was indeed the "full picture", since Gandalf has set a precedent for stating things that were not proven. Do we know if anyone ever had the full picture, even at the end? Quote:
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If not, oh well. It's not like I've never had an unpopular opinion. ![]()
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the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important. Last edited by the phantom; 07-15-2004 at 01:25 PM. |
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#5 | |
A Northern Soul
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
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...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art. |
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#6 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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![]() And neither was Sauron clueless. As has been said, despite imbuing the Ring with part of his own will, he had no way of knowing exactly what would happen if it were to be destroyed. Indeed, the Ring almost certainly didn't know itself (although obviously it was keen to prevent this situation occurring). Again, he could only act on the information available to him at any given time, although, in Sauron's case, his actions were constrained by his blind-spot when it came to assessing the motives and qualities of his opponents.
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! Last edited by The Saucepan Man; 07-16-2004 at 02:37 AM. |
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#7 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I must say this is a very interesting thread. I can see both sides, but I would have to agree with Saucepan Man.
When Frodo was in the cracks of Mount Doom, Sauron realized his peril at that precise moment. This is ME fact if you hold Tolkien as all-knowing; though, as Legolas pointed out, Tolkien is susceptible to our mortal failings in writing. Sauron did not realize it before because he was blinded by his inability to recognize the possibility of enough humility in others to attempt to destroy the Ring. He knew his danger at that point, perhaps - IMHO - the same way we know someone is watching us behind our backs; in other words, a hunch, or something like it. Going back to the First Alliance of Elves and Men, when Isildur cut the finger wearing the Ring off Sauron, Sauron was greatly crippled. He would have assumed that, being in the right place and with the knowledge (perhaps not on Isildur's part, but certainly on the part of the other leaders) that the Ring was extremely dangerous, they would have destroyed the Ring. It was, after all, the wisest thing to do. However - and I know I'm repeating someone else who posted on this thread here - Sauron found that he was not completely recovered. Still under the impression that the Ring had been destroyed, he would have assumed that it had not been as important as he'd thought, being the only conclusion he could come to, as the concept of the Ring not being destroyed had not yet occured to him. When Sauron eventually discovered that the Ring had not in fact been destroyed, he would have then formed the conclusion that if Isildur and co. had not destroyed the ring when they had the best chance possible, no one had the will to destroy it. In other words, if some of the best men/elves had not contained the will to destroy it when they knew that would be the wisest course, then surely lesser men would not have that same will. Conclusion: no one would/could destroy the Ring. My sister is begging me to get off the computer and severely breaking my concentration, so I shall sign off at this point. Cheers, ~ Elentari II P.S. I said I'd edit this post, but I've decided against it. So this post will stay as it is...
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Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit ------------~~~~~~~~~~~~~------------ A laita Atar, ar Yondo, ar Ainasule. Ve nes i yessesse na sin, ar yeva tennoio. Nasie. Last edited by Bekah; 07-16-2004 at 05:31 PM. |
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