LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 04 – A Short Cut to Mushrooms

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

According to my second favourite book (The Oxford English Dictionary) "waggon" is simply a variant spelling of "wagon." It is a bit more archaic, but there were plenty of cited uses of the form from the 1800s and even one from 1939.

I rather suspect that Tolkien spelled it that way not because it was old and archaic the way that "thees" and "thous" are (that is, nobody uses them anymore), but because it was how the word was spelled in his own childhood in the part of the world he grew up in.

I've got nothing to back this up other than my conviction that the Shire is Sarehole.

[Guinevere]

I think that this is an interesting insight into Sam's true character - the whole conversation is, really. Like Frodo, this is a side of Sam's personality that we have not really seen. He shows great perception of the Elves, and we see that he is a 'deeper' character than we had been led to believe.

I agree very much with Firefoot. For me this part about Sam was what impressed me most in this chapter! It was never my impression that he was just a simpleton - he is just not used to put into words what's going on in his mind. And also Frodo understands now that there is more to Sam than he had thought.
Sam's encounter and conversation with the Elves was a revelation for him. He feels different and even has a kind of foreboding. He knows that they are going a long road into darkness and when Frodo warns him that they might not come back from it, this doesn't deter him - quite the contrary, he is set on never leaving his beloved master.

I don't rightly know what I want; but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me.

Very much later, on the pass of Cirith Ungol, when he believes Frodo is dead,and trying to make up his mind, he will remember these very words .

[Bêthberry]

About Gorwingel's question of "waggon":

I rather suspect that Tolkien spelled it that way not because it was old and archaic the way that "thees" and "thous" are (that is, nobody uses them anymore), but because it was how the word was spelled in his own childhood in the part of the world he grew up in.

I think you could well be right about that Fordim. Particularly since the various county dialects of England have maintained their own unique spellings and pronunciations which have not made it into the canonical OED, which we all know is famous for its omissions of non-canonical works and writers.

For intance, 'kine' as the plural of cow, from Old English no less, was still widely used in Yorkshire at least up until the 1850's. (I can name an 1848 novel it was used in.)

I think Eric Partridge has a dictionary of dialect words, doesn't he? Or is it just Shakespeare's Bawdy and Slang and Unconventional English? I'm sure there must be sources for dialects from Birmingham and the Welsh borders.

[Kuruharan]

I think that Gorwingel and HerenIstarion have mentioned (or linked to) something that is worthy of further discussion.

And then another part that stood out to me is the entire part (which is also mentioned above), where Maggot tells Frodo that he should have never associated himself with the "Hobbiton folk". Basically telling him that him moving there is the source of all of his problems. And even though he is partly right, this stood out because to me it's a very hobbitish response. He is not looking that his problems could have came from the world around them, he is saying that the problems came from the hobbits that he didn't know very much, again reinforcing the fact that the hobbits tend to mistrust strangers.

Farmer Maggot is not the hobbit from whom we would expect such insular thinking. Of all the hobbits in the Shire he is probably one who has some of the broadest experience. He’s even friends with Tom Bombadil for goodness sake, and how many people can claim that!? As we will see, Tom had highly complementary things to say about Maggot, aside from Tolkien developing their friendship elsewhere.

Why would Tolkien have Maggot say the things that he said? Was Tolkien trying to reinforce the typical hobbit way of thinking through this atypical hobbit or was there something else going on there?

[Bombadil]

Very ironic indeed. Up to the line Maggot uses,

'You should never have gone mixing yourself up with Hobbiton folk, Mr. Frodo. Folk are queer up there.'

I don't believe he proved himself as of yet. In that I mean as an extraordinary hobbit. He was very generous, but he also knew Merry and Pippin. Bilbo (although extraordinary) took 13 dwarves into his home without question-well not explicitly at least. Therefore I would think re-readers of the book would question such a thing, knowing at that point his personality. But was it meant to be pondered when his extraordinary character and deeds came after this talk?

One more thing I'd like to point out is Maggot's description of the black rider:

'But this fellow was the most outlandish I have ever set eyes on.'

Perhaps i'm over-analyzing, but that is a very hobbit-like characteristic. Of associating those past their borders as queer. I'm guessing the black rider was the most extreme thing he had ever seen, and to describe that he called it 'the most outlandish.'

Before his friendship with Bombadil is known, and his deed of carting the hobbits to the ferry, is he really any different than a normal hobbit?

[Legolas]

Bilbo (although extraordinary) took 13 dwarves into his home without question-well not explicitly at least.

Maybe he hasn't proved himself entirely yet, but his deed measures up and exceeds Bilbo's of bringing in the dwarves. The circumstances were very different - in Bilbo's time, there was no talk of dangerous Black Riders about. Further, Maggot actually spoke with the Rider. The Rider asked “Have you seen Baggins?”; Maggot still accepts Frodo into his home knowing that he is putting himself in the potential line of danger.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Fordim

I rather suspect that Tolkien spelled it that way not because it was old and archaic the way that "thees" and "thous" are (that is, nobody uses them anymore), but because it was how the word was spelled in his own childhood in the part of the world he grew up in.

As a Yorkshireman I can't let this pass! thee, thine, thou (usually contracted to tha') are still common in Yorkshire dialect, as are middle english words like 'lake'/'laking' = play/playing. ('That's thine, tha' 'nus' = 'That's your's, you know'. 'Gi' o'er lakin' abaht' = 'Give over (stop) playing around')

Not perhaps a trivial point given Tolkien's interest in the way language both changes & survives over periods.

On to the 'loneliness' of the nazgul. One thing that I find interesting in Tolkien is that names have meanings - every place & personal name means something, & often has a story attatched, a history. We only know two of the nazgul the Witch King of Angmar, & Khamul (&isn't Khamul a title) Do any of them still have personal names, or have they gone the way of the Mouth of Sauron? If they have no names, they have no lifestory, no personal history, no memories - were they married, did they have children? We'll never know about most of them, & we have very little knowledge about the Witch King - ironically, his enemies probably know more about him than he does himself. Imagine having no identity, no past, being simply driven by the will of Sauron. I wonder if the terror they inspire in others is perhaps down to those others catching some kind of glimpse into what it is to be a Nazgul. When you encounter a nazgul, its like looking suddenly into nothingness.

[Osse]

<shudder>

Good speculations dav...

Farmer Maggot knew that he was probably putting himself in some danger by harbouring the other hobbits, yet he could not possibly fathom how much, nor how terrible. Maggot was willing to "see off" the 'men', with his dogs and his axe!

I wonder if he'd still have been willing to help if he had known the peril he was in. I'd say probably yes. Rather than see the four hobbits face that peril alone, he'd try and help. But perhaps if he knew the real threat, things would not have gone as well!