Tuor/Gondolin/Text (thread moved from private forum)

[Findegil]

Posted by Tar-Elenion:

I hope the original post was constructively helpful.

I am absultly sure that I speak for all, when I say that you can be sure that it was helpful and much apreciated.

Posted by Aiwendil:

As I recall this was one of the last bits we struggled with. I do still think that "tallest of the Noldor save Turgon" sounds a little awkward - I suppose I'm now inclined to follow Tar-Elenion's suggestion.

After some searching I found the discussions about the talliness of Penlod. The changes we made were done in two steps: we did at first by the suggestion of Aiwendil add the exception of Turgon, and when Máedhros later compiled the text he changed the original Gnomes (which was before changed to Noldor as regulary) to Gondolindrim since he thought of Argon. In review these things seemed all over specific. And in response to Tar Elenions suggestions I would go with Aiwendils old suggsetion 2:
Change to "tall among the Noldor". We're allowed to do this by our principles I think, since it's a minimal change.

Posted by Aiwendil:

I'm not entirely sure that having a few Elves die here would violate the First/Second/Third numbering of the kin-slayings (think about all the battles that come in between the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth battles of Beleriand).

Agreed. Especially in view of Turgon killing Eöl in the same way. But I still vote for the savest way and the elimination of ", or flung from the walls".

About Talagand riding: It is right that, the stayment sounds a bit more general, but on the other hand we are already at the eve of the battle. What is dicribed here is the mustering of the forces. But if 3 of 4 read the passage general than we must change it, even if we are never told of any other Gondolindrim riding into battle. What I would suggest is to specify it to this battle alone and not to delet the implicit critic that was imposed by the singelness of his riding. That would simlpy mean:

...; but [Talagand] bore one of gold, and he alone rode into that battle of all the sons of the Gondolindrim, and he was heavy and squat.

As you see I have included his heavieness and spuatness. As fare as I know he is a single example of an overwieghted efl. That this was not normal seems clear from what is side about the fëa controling höra of the elves, but still he discrieb as a enterly week person. So why should he not be fat. I also would like to point out that it is quiet diffrent to scip some special charachteristic from any elf, than to eliminate some charachteristic from the singel example that we have for this charachteristic.

One last point that has not been mentioned and which makes all this discussion a bit dubious for me: In this very limited discussion I have found by my research three points which were (as it seems) in the text that Tar Elenion comented on as we had some discussed before:
- "Penlod, tallest of the Noldor save Turgon" was at last discused by us as "Penlod, tallest of the Gondolindrim save Turgon"
- "... {Of those demons of power Ecthelion slew three} [And {he}[Echtelion] drove them back] , for the brightness ..." the exact self change we had already done once.
- "Another note on this page - it had escaped me that we had placed:
All this have others in ancient stories
and songs unfolded, but say I further
. . . at the end of the fragment. This is simply bizarre. It ought to be deleted."
This is really bizarre, because we did decide to delet the fragment completly in our last discussion (if my memory is right).

Since I missed to download this particular text when it was online for such a short time, it would be nice to know in what stat that text was. May be someone could e-mail it to me.

Respectfully
Findegil