Tolkien and the Monsters - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 07-12-2004, 01:24 AM

Of course, we have Goldberry & her mother, the River Woman - aspects of a primal nature goddess? Goldberry is the maiden aspect, & the River woman the crone. Does Goldberry love her 'mother'. Whether Old Man Willow is in a similar relationship to Tom is something I think has been mentioned before.

Its almost like Tolkien is creating 'mirrored images' - Tom/OMW, Goldberry/RW, Galadriel/Shelob, Frodo/Gollum, Gandalf/Saruman,Aragorn/Boromir- showing the outcome of moral choices. So its not simply good guys vs bad guys, Good vs Evil, its a depiction of the consequence of moral choices. And those who make the wrong moral choice become 'monsters' - physically as well as pyschologically. Its not a case of 'well, he makes all the good guys handsome so we can identify with/admire them & all the villains ugly so we'll hate them. Its that he's saying evil choices make us ugly - in this world only on the inside, but in Middle Earth on the outside too. His evil characters have made themselves ugly & foul ...

(Bang!! Davem's argument slams into the 'orc question' - ouch!)

Perhaps this is the reason Tolkien agonised so much in later writings about the origin of orcs. All the other villains are self made monsters, ugly & cruel because they've chosen to be. Orcs, however, are made into monsters by an external force. But I suppose this is what happens when you start out writing fairy tales & & end up writing high mythology. Faerie contains monsters, who are just 'monsters'. In Faerie Goblins, Trolls & Ogres simply exist, & have as much right to exist as Elves, Gnomes, & talking foxes! There's no 'moral' dimension as such. Ogres simply exist there & always have. They aren't explained, because they don't need to be. An ogre in a fairystory is just 'there'. He has as much 'right' to be there as the most beautiful Fay.

But in Middle Earth the moral dimension is a force, it affects individuals. There, all were once good, but some chose to become monsters - except the Orcs & by extension the Trolls. So, they must be 'robots', mustn't they? Yet, they have a metaphysics of their own - the Nazgul can strip them of their bodies & leave them (their 'spirit') naked in the 'dark' on the 'other side', so how can they be 'robots'?

Could it be possible that the Elves originally corrupted into Orcs made a moral choice to serve Morgoth - without realising the ultimate consequence? Who knows.

I think SpM's problem with Orcs' moral status still stands unresolved.

07-12-2004, 01:24 AM	#23
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Of course, we have Goldberry & her mother, the River Woman - aspects of a primal nature goddess? Goldberry is the maiden aspect, & the River woman the crone. Does Goldberry love her 'mother'. Whether Old Man Willow is in a similar relationship to Tom is something I think has been mentioned before. Its almost like Tolkien is creating 'mirrored images' - Tom/OMW, Goldberry/RW, Galadriel/Shelob, Frodo/Gollum, Gandalf/Saruman,Aragorn/Boromir- showing the outcome of moral choices. So its not simply good guys vs bad guys, Good vs Evil, its a depiction of the consequence of moral choices. And those who make the wrong moral choice become 'monsters' - physically as well as pyschologically. Its not a case of 'well, he makes all the good guys handsome so we can identify with/admire them & all the villains ugly so we'll hate them. Its that he's saying evil choices make us ugly - in this world only on the inside, but in Middle Earth on the outside too. His evil characters have made themselves ugly & foul ... (Bang!! Davem's argument slams into the 'orc question' - ouch!) Perhaps this is the reason Tolkien agonised so much in later writings about the origin of orcs. All the other villains are self made monsters, ugly & cruel because they've chosen to be. Orcs, however, are made into monsters by an external force. But I suppose this is what happens when you start out writing fairy tales & & end up writing high mythology. Faerie contains monsters, who are just 'monsters'. In Faerie Goblins, Trolls & Ogres simply exist, & have as much right to exist as Elves, Gnomes, & talking foxes! There's no 'moral' dimension as such. Ogres simply exist there & always have. They aren't explained, because they don't need to be. An ogre in a fairystory is just 'there'. He has as much 'right' to be there as the most beautiful Fay. But in Middle Earth the moral dimension is a force, it affects individuals. There, all were once good, but some chose to become monsters - except the Orcs & by extension the Trolls. So, they must be 'robots', mustn't they? Yet, they have a metaphysics of their own - the Nazgul can strip them of their bodies & leave them (their 'spirit') naked in the 'dark' on the 'other side', so how can they be 'robots'? Could it be possible that the Elves originally corrupted into Orcs made a moral choice to serve Morgoth - without realising the ultimate consequence? Who knows. I think SpM's problem with Orcs' moral status still stands unresolved. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."