Coffee! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

bombur · 09-21-2002, 07:22 AM

About preference in coffee, it was said: ”I like my coffee like my Nazguls: strong and black.”

How about this ME version of Finnish saying: Coffee shoul be enjoyed as black as is Sauron (satan), as hot as is mount doom (hell), as pure as is Luthien (angel) and as sweet as is love. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I just have to add about the monetary system of ME... Minted money has value in addition to its gold content. To my understanding even in the post middle age Europe every local baron was minting his own coin. As far as the face / emblem stamped on it was recognised, the coin was worth more then gold. Farther it was worth exactly what the gold in it was. So basically in the 15th century or so, currencies of Milan, Venice and Genova etc. were worth more then gold all around Europe because everyone at least was trading with someone who was trading with someone who knew that he can trade the coin for more value with the renaiccance Italian traders. That is why every ancient trasurehoard in Europe contains golden dublon - coin. Finnish graves excavated from the pre swedish (tribal lands with no centralised authority) period contain Byzantium coin from some 2000km away from here. It would have been worth more then the golden armband chipped by weight used internally by many viking nations and Finnish tribes as well (though lot of trade here in north was barter). Why did it have value? Because the same east sailing vikings who traded pattern welded swords for pelts in finnish coasts also sailed along russian rivers to Byzantium to trade pelts for silk and they knew that Bysantite traders give more silk for their own coin then for goldchip. Value of currency is largely a social agreenment. Currency is like a transportable and intercahangable notebook... ”Yes, we could just trade product for product, but give me two for one now and I give you this yellow circle and anyone in this city will give you two for one for it tomorrow.”

If the trade in middle earth is by land and in small steps, then currency system is very different. Coin stays in relatively small area if there is no shortcuts along the sea (In Europe you can never be more then 500 km or so from nearest coast and likely never more then few dozen km from closest sailable river.... not so in ME... ok... not so in China either but China is always different. They had unified imperial currency at 4th century or so... BC). Everyone uses the coin to buy from those who give best price. This means that in Bree, shirecoin recieved as payment for coffee ( [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) buys from shire and not the soutern traders. Tharbad coin recieved as payment for hobbit nettletextile, pipeweed and herbal teas buys coffee from the southerners. Trader gets his profits in Breecoin by selling portion of the textile, tea, weed and coffee to Breemen. Thus the exeptional far traveling hobbit will note a strange inflation... farther one gets from home the more expensive everything is and by Esgaroth the barman will look at his coin funny and take scales from under counter. The coin is good everywhere since it is of precious metal, but it buys most close to home where the stamp has some value. I think coin of Gondor bearing the face of Elendil still would most likely be the only one in the ME to be worth more then it’s weight everwhere as everyone knows that if they pass it down along the Anduin or the great southern road, it will EVENTUALLY reach a place of importance where it is worth more then its weight. To give more then the weight value for coin a trader needs to know for himself that it has more value somewhere and at least the general direction of that somewhere. In such situation coinery remains very unified and local, only carried by the pockets of stray far-travelling hobbit and trader returning the coin to the direction of greater value. Gondor coin will tend to drift back to Gondor and every other coin accepted at the weight value will tend to eng up to a local goldsmith or mint as a raw materiale. Another type of omnipresent coin might be dwarwen coin. As dwarves travel along the east-west road and propably everyone knows that they give better value in goods or work to the coin stamped with the beard of Durin in iron mountais.

What comes to the ”idle class gentlemen,” like the Bagginses, moneylending and land leasing takes a amount of work as well. Ask any medieval jew or baron.

Of this I have no EXACT FACTUAL knowledge... some reference and conjecture only. It would seem to me that at some point of history between the Hansa trading houses and the London stockmarket a consept if interrest and investment fund arose as a type of contract. Maybe the 16th century, 17th century, maybe the 18th, however at some point this system developed. And I might emphasise that it arose in the upper middle class or lower upperclass. Basically it was a pension system. With something like 25 units of money you could buy a contract for 1 unit a year thereafter. Such contract would be bought from established businesman or even kings state funds (maybe even Lotho made such contracts) whom you trust not to be bankrupted. This maybe was a step between the modern banker and medieval moneylender. Such contract did not have expiration date, such money could not be withdrawn as it can be from modern bank, the contract and the income could be transferred as heritage.

Though I am far to the political left, I’d have to say that thing like this is to a degree a beneficial historical devlopment. Many a artist, author or philosopher was a son of average wealth bourgoise family, that had passed him some small income by such contract for a ”living interrest”. Van Gogh sold I think one single painting for money while living. Had there not existed such form of social contract, there would not have been a poor painter meagerly getting by, but a coalminer eating his hard earned bread and mutterintg that he just knows he could have been something.

Janne Harju

Ps. spices... you would not believe the amount of plants usable as spice grow natural in temperate zone. Cellery, chives parsley, hop, mustardseed, mint, garlic, onion, tansy, mugvort, basil, sorrle, wildmint, gale, caraway, meadowsweet, juniper, rowan, nettle and henbane all have uses as spice and are only the ones I KNOW to be universal in european continent, the ones the name of which I know in english. If the hobbit kitchen is at all related to english, they do not need imported spices. I rather can see them having small herb gardens everyone.

09-21-2002, 07:22 AM	#1
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	About preference in coffee, it was said: ”I like my coffee like my Nazguls: strong and black.” How about this ME version of Finnish saying: Coffee shoul be enjoyed as black as is Sauron (satan), as hot as is mount doom (hell), as pure as is Luthien (angel) and as sweet as is love. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I just have to add about the monetary system of ME... Minted money has value in addition to its gold content. To my understanding even in the post middle age Europe every local baron was minting his own coin. As far as the face / emblem stamped on it was recognised, the coin was worth more then gold. Farther it was worth exactly what the gold in it was. So basically in the 15th century or so, currencies of Milan, Venice and Genova etc. were worth more then gold all around Europe because everyone at least was trading with someone who was trading with someone who knew that he can trade the coin for more value with the renaiccance Italian traders. That is why every ancient trasurehoard in Europe contains golden dublon - coin. Finnish graves excavated from the pre swedish (tribal lands with no centralised authority) period contain Byzantium coin from some 2000km away from here. It would have been worth more then the golden armband chipped by weight used internally by many viking nations and Finnish tribes as well (though lot of trade here in north was barter). Why did it have value? Because the same east sailing vikings who traded pattern welded swords for pelts in finnish coasts also sailed along russian rivers to Byzantium to trade pelts for silk and they knew that Bysantite traders give more silk for their own coin then for goldchip. Value of currency is largely a social agreenment. Currency is like a transportable and intercahangable notebook... ”Yes, we could just trade product for product, but give me two for one now and I give you this yellow circle and anyone in this city will give you two for one for it tomorrow.” If the trade in middle earth is by land and in small steps, then currency system is very different. Coin stays in relatively small area if there is no shortcuts along the sea (In Europe you can never be more then 500 km or so from nearest coast and likely never more then few dozen km from closest sailable river.... not so in ME... ok... not so in China either but China is always different. They had unified imperial currency at 4th century or so... BC). Everyone uses the coin to buy from those who give best price. This means that in Bree, shirecoin recieved as payment for coffee ( [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) buys from shire and not the soutern traders. Tharbad coin recieved as payment for hobbit nettletextile, pipeweed and herbal teas buys coffee from the southerners. Trader gets his profits in Breecoin by selling portion of the textile, tea, weed and coffee to Breemen. Thus the exeptional far traveling hobbit will note a strange inflation... farther one gets from home the more expensive everything is and by Esgaroth the barman will look at his coin funny and take scales from under counter. The coin is good everywhere since it is of precious metal, but it buys most close to home where the stamp has some value. I think coin of Gondor bearing the face of Elendil still would most likely be the only one in the ME to be worth more then it’s weight everwhere as everyone knows that if they pass it down along the Anduin or the great southern road, it will EVENTUALLY reach a place of importance where it is worth more then its weight. To give more then the weight value for coin a trader needs to know for himself that it has more value somewhere and at least the general direction of that somewhere. In such situation coinery remains very unified and local, only carried by the pockets of stray far-travelling hobbit and trader returning the coin to the direction of greater value. Gondor coin will tend to drift back to Gondor and every other coin accepted at the weight value will tend to eng up to a local goldsmith or mint as a raw materiale. Another type of omnipresent coin might be dwarwen coin. As dwarves travel along the east-west road and propably everyone knows that they give better value in goods or work to the coin stamped with the beard of Durin in iron mountais. What comes to the ”idle class gentlemen,” like the Bagginses, moneylending and land leasing takes a amount of work as well. Ask any medieval jew or baron. Of this I have no EXACT FACTUAL knowledge... some reference and conjecture only. It would seem to me that at some point of history between the Hansa trading houses and the London stockmarket a consept if interrest and investment fund arose as a type of contract. Maybe the 16th century, 17th century, maybe the 18th, however at some point this system developed. And I might emphasise that it arose in the upper middle class or lower upperclass. Basically it was a pension system. With something like 25 units of money you could buy a contract for 1 unit a year thereafter. Such contract would be bought from established businesman or even kings state funds (maybe even Lotho made such contracts) whom you trust not to be bankrupted. This maybe was a step between the modern banker and medieval moneylender. Such contract did not have expiration date, such money could not be withdrawn as it can be from modern bank, the contract and the income could be transferred as heritage. Though I am far to the political left, I’d have to say that thing like this is to a degree a beneficial historical devlopment. Many a artist, author or philosopher was a son of average wealth bourgoise family, that had passed him some small income by such contract for a ”living interrest”. Van Gogh sold I think one single painting for money while living. Had there not existed such form of social contract, there would not have been a poor painter meagerly getting by, but a coalminer eating his hard earned bread and mutterintg that he just knows he could have been something. Janne Harju Ps. spices... you would not believe the amount of plants usable as spice grow natural in temperate zone. Cellery, chives parsley, hop, mustardseed, mint, garlic, onion, tansy, mugvort, basil, sorrle, wildmint, gale, caraway, meadowsweet, juniper, rowan, nettle and henbane all have uses as spice and are only the ones I KNOW to be universal in european continent, the ones the name of which I know in english. If the hobbit kitchen is at all related to english, they do not need imported spices. I rather can see them having small herb gardens everyone.