Coffee! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Child of the 7th Age · 09-01-2002, 10:36 PM

Mr B-W,

How about this? Coffee wasn't the only anachronistic reference in the Shire, especially in the Hobbit. What about potatoes, tobacco, chimneys (not invented till the middle ages), clocks, Sam's gardening shears, hobbit mantlepieces, umbrellas, instruments like viols and clarinets that the Dwarves played? Even stirrups are questionable. There's also my two favorites--the dragon fireworks that "passed like an express train" and Sam's reference to "fish and chips." Bilbo's handkerchief could not have been known in England till the reign of Richard II, and his "silk waistcoat" would have to be imported to Europe from China in the fourteenth century (although there were sources of silk in the ancient world). Waste paper baskets were unknown in medieval Europe. The list goes on and on. I often wonder if the Shire had indoor plumbing courtesy of Arthur Crapper!!

Maybe all these came from the same place: Tolkien's fertile imagination, plus the tendency to describe the Shire with a slight Victorian/Edwardian patina. And maybe in some cases, Tolkien was dealing with Westron words that didn't have an exact English equivalent!! So he just translated them to the closest one he could find. Perhaps, coffee wasn't exactly what we think of today, but some kind of herbal drink that looked and functioned the same way.

Is anyone "bothered" by these anachronisms? It certainly doesn't bother me! One of the reasons I am fond of the Shire is that it has the feel of 19th century village life in England which makes it very different from every other place in Middle-earth. And the anachronisms are part of that.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

09-01-2002, 10:36 PM	#8
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	Mr B-W, How about this? Coffee wasn't the only anachronistic reference in the Shire, especially in the Hobbit. What about potatoes, tobacco, chimneys (not invented till the middle ages), clocks, Sam's gardening shears, hobbit mantlepieces, umbrellas, instruments like viols and clarinets that the Dwarves played? Even stirrups are questionable. There's also my two favorites--the dragon fireworks that "passed like an express train" and Sam's reference to "fish and chips." Bilbo's handkerchief could not have been known in England till the reign of Richard II, and his "silk waistcoat" would have to be imported to Europe from China in the fourteenth century (although there were sources of silk in the ancient world). Waste paper baskets were unknown in medieval Europe. The list goes on and on. I often wonder if the Shire had indoor plumbing courtesy of Arthur Crapper!! Maybe all these came from the same place: Tolkien's fertile imagination, plus the tendency to describe the Shire with a slight Victorian/Edwardian patina. And maybe in some cases, Tolkien was dealing with Westron words that didn't have an exact English equivalent!! So he just translated them to the closest one he could find. Perhaps, coffee wasn't exactly what we think of today, but some kind of herbal drink that looked and functioned the same way. Is anyone "bothered" by these anachronisms? It certainly doesn't bother me! One of the reasons I am fond of the Shire is that it has the feel of 19th century village life in England which makes it very different from every other place in Middle-earth. And the anachronisms are part of that. sharon, the 7th age hobbit [ September 02, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.