Man behind the Mythology - Page 9 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-18-2004, 04:03 AM

Which two women were responsible for getting Tolkien to finish writing The Hobbit in order to have it published?

Lindir · 06-18-2004, 10:39 AM

Was it Mrs. Tolkien and Mrs. Unwin?

Oh, I dunno

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-18-2004, 12:01 PM

Nice guess, Lindir, but it doesn't appear that those two ladies had that profound an effect on their respective husbands!

I'm sorry, but finding this answer will take some researching in the biography.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-19-2004, 05:50 AM

Elaine Griffiths, a friend and former pupil of Tolkien's and Susan Dagnall from the staff of George Allen and Unwin.

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-19-2004, 06:27 AM

Right, Squatter, and we should be very thankful that they were friends, had the right connections, and were interested in Tolkien's story!

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-19-2004, 08:20 AM

Which item of statuary did Tolkien often employ as a hat stand?

Son of Númenor · 06-23-2004, 01:50 PM

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that Professor Tolkien was wont to hang his cap on a replica of the Statue of David.

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-23-2004, 03:11 PM

Good guess, but you want someone less biblical. The statue's in a place where Tolkien often had business.

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-27-2004, 07:00 AM

I remember reading this tidbit, but haven't located it in the chapters of the biography that I've paged through. It seems to me that it was in a library, at one of the colleges. Can you give a clue that will help narrow down the search a bit?

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-27-2004, 02:37 PM

This concerns the placement of Tolkien's own bust.

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-28-2004, 02:22 AM

Ah, I finally found it, in Letter 288 - JRRT hung his hat on the Tsar of Russia's bust! I wonder if his own, in the Oxford English Faculty Library, is used similarly today?!

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 06-28-2004, 03:02 AM

Hardly anyone wears hats any more, so probably not. Maybe one day I'll do it, in revenge for the Czar's dignity.

Your turn, Estelyn.

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-30-2004, 12:47 AM

In which seaside town did the Tolkien family spend a holiday that inspired one of his children's stories?

**The Saucepan Man** · 06-30-2004, 02:41 AM

... but was it the charming resort of Sidmouth?

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-30-2004, 03:29 AM

Nice guess, Saucy, but unfortunately not the correct answer...

Mariska Greenleaf · 06-30-2004, 03:32 AM

Was it the seaside town of Filey then?

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-30-2004, 03:35 AM

That's the one, Mariska! Family events there prompted him to invent the story of Roverandom.

Mariska Greenleaf · 06-30-2004, 03:54 AM

Edith had to sacrifice a lot to be Tolkien's wife, and life wasn't always that easy for her.
What did Tolkien call her, and how was she called by the wives of other Oxford professors?

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-07-2004, 11:28 PM

Ronald Tolkien called Edith "little one". I could not find a particular nickname that the Oxford wives gave her, though Carpenter's biography does mention that they said that "Mr Tolkien's wife did not call". That refers to the custom of calling = visiting each other, with the leaving of cards in expectation of a return visit.

Mariska Greenleaf · 07-08-2004, 01:12 AM

That was exactly what I was thinking of. Your turn, Estelyn!

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-08-2004, 11:49 AM

Which of Tolkien's children was born while he was away during WWI?

Bêthberry · 07-12-2004, 12:04 PM

That would be Tolkien's eldest child, John, born November 1917 and who now rests in the Wolvercote cemetary near JRR and Edith, if I am remembering correctly Squatter's Easter report of his second visit to the cemetary.

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-12-2004, 03:32 PM

Correct, Bêthberry! Next one's yours...

Bêthberry · 07-13-2004, 09:57 AM

*catches the ball and throws it out again*

We are all aware of how much Tolkien loved language. Names were particularly important to him, not only their derivation but the giving of names as well.

What name did Tolkien give to his first car? And how did he drive it?

Fordim Hedgethistle · 07-13-2004, 01:01 PM

Quote:

What name did Tolkien give to his first car?

Bob?

Quote:

And how did he drive it?

While wearing a false moustache?

(I don't think I'm going to be very good at this game. . .)

Bêthberry · 07-13-2004, 02:20 PM

"Bob" is a very fine name, Fordim, one that I particuarly like, but unfortunately--or fortunately, as the case may be--Tolkien did not share my enthusiasm for Bob.

And, no, Tolkien was not given to imitating Hercule Poirot.

Nevertheless, welcome to the thread, Fordim!

*throws the ball out again.*

Mariska Greenleaf · 07-14-2004, 01:09 AM

Tolkien named the car "Jo", because of the first two signs on the license plate.
But how did he drove it??? Maybe with great care? Wearing a Panama hat? While smoking his pipe? I'm clueless on that one...

Bêthberry · 07-14-2004, 10:14 AM

Yes indeed the ignoble beast was named 'Jo.' And that being the main question, why, I shall answer the rest myself, seeing as Squatter is not here to fulminate upon vehicles of the combustible engine kind.

Carpenter claimed that 'Jo' knocked down part of a dry-stone wall on a trip to visit Hilary Tolkien. Edith apparently refused to ride in Jo after that.

But the report I found the most illuminating was Carpenter's claim that, in order to make his way through busy main streets and onto side streets in Oxford, Tolkien would plough into the intersection crying heroicly to Jo, "Charge 'em and they scatter!"

Rather Rohirric of him, don't you think? Oxfordians should perhaps be thankful he decided to give up ownership of automobiles.

The driver's seat is now yours, Mariska Greenleaf.

Mariska Greenleaf · 07-15-2004, 02:28 AM

Thank you, BB!

What title did Tolkien himself prefer instead of "The return of the King", which according to him, gave it all away?

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-15-2004, 06:05 AM

He preferred 'The War of the Ring' - I would agree that it would have been better.

Mariska Greenleaf · 07-16-2004, 02:25 AM

So do I. The floor is yours, Estelyn!

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-18-2004, 10:31 AM

Which dialect of Middle English was Tolkien's specialty in his linguistic studies?

Bêthberry · 07-18-2004, 10:58 AM

I believe it was the West Midland dialect of Middle English, Estelyn.

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-18-2004, 11:20 AM

Absolutely correct, Ms. Bêthberry! Your turn...

Bêthberry · 07-19-2004, 08:30 AM

We likely are all aware of Tolkien's adamant denial in the Forward that LotR is an allegory. Yet, yet, in a draft of an undated letter, Tolkien does say what LotR is an allegory of.

What is that?

Mariska Greenleaf · 07-19-2004, 08:59 AM

I believe Tolkien thought of it more as an allegory of the human race, saying:

Quote:

.I’ve always been impressed that we’re here surviving because of the indomitable courage of quite small people against impossible odds: jungles, volcanoes, wild beasts... they struggle on, almost blindly in a way" (Interview by Dennis Gerrolt; it was first broadcast in January 1971 on BBC Radio 4 program "Now Read On…").

But I'm nog sure since you are referring to the letters. Maybe you are looking for another answer...

Bêthberry · 07-19-2004, 10:36 AM

You are correct, Mariska; I am looking for a different answer.

Tolkien uses the word allegory in his draft, first to deny what LotR is an allegory of. He then states what it is of.

There's two end prepositions, which I am proud of.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 07-19-2004, 10:46 AM

Ending a post with a preposition is something up with which I will not put!

Bêthberry · 07-26-2004, 09:43 AM

A hint, a hint for an answer to come up with?

This was a letter written in the month of "shoures soote", in the mid-fifties, sent to someone who appears one time only to have been written to.

*nods to Fordim and Churchill*

Child of the 7th Age · 07-26-2004, 10:23 AM

.......Child comes dragging in from vacation with her copy of the Letters in one hand and Canterbury Tales in the other

Bethberry,

I'll take a shot at this. There is a letter dated 10 April 1958 (lots of nice showers then!) that was sent to C. Ouboter, a Rotterdam bookseller whom Tolkien had just visited. In this letter, Tolkien first says this:

Quote:

As for 'message', I have none really, if by that is meant the conscious purpose in writing The Lord of the Rings of preaching, or of delivering myself of a vision of truth esepcially revealed to me!

But he then goes on to admit that , in rereading the book, he became "aware of the dominence of the theme of Death". He observes:

Quote:

But certainly Death is not an Enemy! I said, or meant to say, that the 'message' was the hideous peril of confusing true 'immortality' with limitless serial longevity. Freedom from Time, and clinging to Time. The confusion is the work of the Enemy, and one of the chief causes of human disaster.

Is this what you had in mind?

~Child

06-18-2004, 04:03 AM	#321
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Which two women were responsible for getting Tolkien to finish writing The Hobbit in order to have it published? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-18-2004, 10:39 AM	#322
Lindir Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Void Posts: 98	Was it Mrs. Tolkien and Mrs. Unwin? Oh, I dunno __________________ Come not between the Nazgul and his prey!Or he will not slay thee in thy turn.He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.

06-18-2004, 12:01 PM	#323
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Nice guess, Lindir, but it doesn't appear that those two ladies had that profound an effect on their respective husbands! I'm sorry, but finding this answer will take some researching in the biography. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-19-2004, 05:50 AM	#324
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Prosaic muses of the Shire Elaine Griffiths, a friend and former pupil of Tolkien's and Susan Dagnall from the staff of George Allen and Unwin. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

06-19-2004, 06:27 AM	#325
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Right, Squatter, and we should be very thankful that they were friends, had the right connections, and were interested in Tolkien's story! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-19-2004, 08:20 AM	#326
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	The Professorial Iconoclast Which item of statuary did Tolkien often employ as a hat stand? __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

06-23-2004, 01:50 PM	#327
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 515	Fedoras by Michelangelo I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that Professor Tolkien was wont to hang his cap on a replica of the Statue of David. __________________ "This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement."

06-23-2004, 03:11 PM	#328
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Nice thought, but no Good guess, but you want someone less biblical. The statue's in a place where Tolkien often had business. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

06-27-2004, 07:00 AM	#329
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	I remember reading this tidbit, but haven't located it in the chapters of the biography that I've paged through. It seems to me that it was in a library, at one of the colleges. Can you give a clue that will help narrow down the search a bit? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-27-2004, 02:37 PM	#330
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	A clue This concerns the placement of Tolkien's own bust. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

06-28-2004, 02:22 AM	#331
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Ah, I finally found it, in Letter 288 - JRRT hung his hat on the Tsar of Russia's bust! I wonder if his own, in the Oxford English Faculty Library, is used similarly today?! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-28-2004, 03:02 AM	#332
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	That's the one Hardly anyone wears hats any more, so probably not. Maybe one day I'll do it, in revenge for the Czar's dignity. Your turn, Estelyn. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

06-30-2004, 12:47 AM	#333
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	In which seaside town did the Tolkien family spend a holiday that inspired one of his children's stories? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-30-2004, 02:41 AM	#334
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	I'm guessing ... ... but was it the charming resort of Sidmouth? __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

06-30-2004, 03:29 AM	#335
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Nice guess, Saucy, but unfortunately not the correct answer... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-30-2004, 03:32 AM	#336
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	Was it the seaside town of Filey then? __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

06-30-2004, 03:35 AM	#337
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	That's the one, Mariska! Family events there prompted him to invent the story of Roverandom. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

06-30-2004, 03:54 AM	#338
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	Edith had to sacrifice a lot to be Tolkien's wife, and life wasn't always that easy for her. What did Tolkien call her, and how was she called by the wives of other Oxford professors? __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

07-07-2004, 11:28 PM	#339
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Ronald Tolkien called Edith "little one". I could not find a particular nickname that the Oxford wives gave her, though Carpenter's biography does mention that they said that "Mr Tolkien's wife did not call". That refers to the custom of calling = visiting each other, with the leaving of cards in expectation of a return visit. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-08-2004, 01:12 AM	#340
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	That was exactly what I was thinking of. Your turn, Estelyn! __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

07-08-2004, 11:49 AM	#341
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Next question Which of Tolkien's children was born while he was away during WWI? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-12-2004, 12:04 PM	#342
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	That would be Tolkien's eldest child, John, born November 1917 and who now rests in the Wolvercote cemetary near JRR and Edith, if I am remembering correctly Squatter's Easter report of his second visit to the cemetary. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

07-12-2004, 03:32 PM	#343
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Correct, Bêthberry! Next one's yours... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-13-2004, 09:57 AM	#344
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Charge of the fright brigade catches the ball and throws it out again We are all aware of how much Tolkien loved language. Names were particularly important to him, not only their derivation but the giving of names as well. What name did Tolkien give to his first car? And how did he drive it? __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

07-13-2004, 02:20 PM	#346
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	"Bob" is a very fine name, Fordim, one that I particuarly like, but unfortunately--or fortunately, as the case may be--Tolkien did not share my enthusiasm for Bob. And, no, Tolkien was not given to imitating Hercule Poirot. Nevertheless, welcome to the thread, Fordim! throws the ball out again. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

07-14-2004, 01:09 AM	#347
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	Tolkien named the car "Jo", because of the first two signs on the license plate. But how did he drove it??? Maybe with great care? Wearing a Panama hat? While smoking his pipe? I'm clueless on that one... __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

07-14-2004, 10:14 AM	#348
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Yes indeed the ignoble beast was named 'Jo.' And that being the main question, why, I shall answer the rest myself, seeing as Squatter is not here to fulminate upon vehicles of the combustible engine kind. Carpenter claimed that 'Jo' knocked down part of a dry-stone wall on a trip to visit Hilary Tolkien. Edith apparently refused to ride in Jo after that. But the report I found the most illuminating was Carpenter's claim that, in order to make his way through busy main streets and onto side streets in Oxford, Tolkien would plough into the intersection crying heroicly to Jo, "Charge 'em and they scatter!" Rather Rohirric of him, don't you think? Oxfordians should perhaps be thankful he decided to give up ownership of automobiles. The driver's seat is now yours, Mariska Greenleaf. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

07-15-2004, 02:28 AM	#349
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	Thank you, BB! What title did Tolkien himself prefer instead of "The return of the King", which according to him, gave it all away? __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

07-15-2004, 06:05 AM	#350
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	He preferred 'The War of the Ring' - I would agree that it would have been better. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-16-2004, 02:25 AM	#351
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	So do I. The floor is yours, Estelyn! __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

07-18-2004, 10:31 AM	#352
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Which dialect of Middle English was Tolkien's specialty in his linguistic studies? __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-18-2004, 10:58 AM	#353
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	I believe it was the West Midland dialect of Middle English, Estelyn.

07-18-2004, 11:20 AM	#354
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Absolutely correct, Ms. Bêthberry! Your turn... __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-19-2004, 08:30 AM	#355
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	A 'gory story by any meaure We likely are all aware of Tolkien's adamant denial in the Forward that LotR is an allegory. Yet, yet, in a draft of an undated letter, Tolkien does say what LotR is an allegory of. What is that?

07-19-2004, 10:36 AM	#357
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	You are correct, Mariska; I am looking for a different answer. Tolkien uses the word allegory in his draft, first to deny what LotR is an allegory of. He then states what it is of. There's two end prepositions, which I am proud of.