Aragorn's Ancestors

[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 69</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Kingship of the Noldor

1)
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Quothe MM:
You mentioned one source prior to my reference to The Silmarillion, in response to my comment: &quot;Anyway, it may be this statement or a similar one which confuses some people. All three of the royal families of the Eldar were represented in the descendants of Elros, but those descendants could not claim Ingwe as an ancestor.&quot;

At (3/20/01 7:59:17 pm) I took exception with your erroneous statements about the line of kingship, and you responded (3/20/01 10:54:30 pm) without establishing any references other than &quot;Quenta Silmarillion}. I followed up with reference to The Silmarillion at (3/20/01 11:40:10 pm).

So we were clearly using The Silmarillion as the basis for discussion until you jumped outside the frame of reference to bring in the &quot;Shibboleth&quot;.

Our comments were rooted in The Silmarillion. Since the &quot;Shibboleth&quot; is problem-laden this whole exchange is pointless and misleading for lurkers.
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My statements are correct. 'Quenta Silmarillion' I was refering to is in HoME 5. The statement in it I was refering to is not in 'The Silmarillion'.
_OUR__ comments were not rooted in The Silmarillion. _My_ comments were rooted in the greater corpus.

2)
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Quothe MM:
This point stands. And you have not addressed the serious problems with your argument.
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Point does not stand. As I have previously quoted JRRT's statements which disagree with you.
I have addressed (and will) any such problems as I find.

3)
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Quothe MM:
Wrong actions. If you're going to respond to what I write, you would do well to stay on topic.
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I quoted actions of Feanor that caused division, he was acting as though he were King and the majority of the Noldor took exception, and would not renounce Fingolfin.

4)
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Quothe MM:
I have done so repeatedly, and will not keep pointing out the errors you refuse to admit to. They are posted above for everyone to see.
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In what I have numbered 4, I cited 'Quenta Silmarillion' as mentioning Fingolfin's 'kingship' in Tuna. I stated JRRT did not use the term in his later rewrites, this seems to imply that there was some change in his conception of this.
You have not pointed out how this is in error, because it is not in error. It is fact.

5)
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Quothe MM:
Ingwe was a king, the last time I checked The Silmarillion and related texts.
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Ingwe did not lead the Vanyar to the War of Wrath. He remained behind in Valinor: &quot;but he came never back, nor looked again upon Middle-earth&quot;.
Eonwe's trumpets sounded and Eonwe was not a King.
(I see you were posting your responce while I was correcting typos, your error in this is perhaps understandable, though an error nonetheless.)

6)
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Quothe MM:
The Kingship of the Noldor is canonically documented only in The Silmarillion and its constituent texts, which do not inclue &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot;. You might as well draw upon The Book of Lost Tales for a discussion of Hobbits. There would be an equal amount of relevance.
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The Silmarillion is not canon (or no moreso than any of the posthumously published works). Some portion of the Shibboleth is used (that is included) in 'The Silmarillion'.
You have a habit of dismissing anything that does not agree with you personal position as not relevant. Fortunately you do not decide what is relevant.

7)
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Quothe MM:
This point stands.
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As I have already backed up with quotes from the corpus,
your point does not stand. The Kingship of the Noldor was first Finwe's. When he held himself 'unkinged' Fingolfin ruled in his stead. Until he died Finwe was still considered the King. When he died Feanor claimed the kingship. This was not generally accepted. When speaking of himself after his claim, Feanor referred to himself as the heir of the King, not as the King himself. Fingolfin also claimed the Kingship. We now have two rival claiments. After Feanor died, Maedhros had a claim to the Kingship. He did not attempt to exercise this claim , but instead waived the claim (he did not relinquish the Kingship, which he did not have), and said the Kingship was rightfully Fingolfin's.

<img src=cool.gif ALT="8)">
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Quothe MM:
See above. We were indeed.
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No _WE_ were not. You may have been. I was not (see above). I would suggest that you refrain from telling me what I was doing.

9)
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Quothe MM:
There is no interpretation required to see that J.R.R. Tolkien wrote that no one but Fingolfin was a king until after Fingolfin's death. Hence, there is an incredible contradiction which you are attempting to obfuscate with completely invalid attempts at reconciliation. Ignoring the facts doesn't reconcile the contradictions.

In &quot;The Shibboleth of Feanor&quot;, there is only one Noldorin king in Beleriand from the time of Fingolfin's arrival until his death: Fingolfin. And that clearly contradicts everything in the primary texts. Hence, the points you draw upon in &quot;The Shibboleth&quot; are without merit. You're wasting your time on this.
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JRRT did not write that, he wrote that the Noldor became divided into seperate kingships after the death of Fingolfin. Their various kingships were much less united after the fall of Fingolfin and ruin of Beleriand.

You make a habit of attempting to narrowly define and dismiss any text that does not suit your own personal position, with little regard to the actual relevance of the text. I prefer to look at the greater context. Fortunately you do not set the rules.

10)
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Quothe MM:
Quite true. I reluctantly agreed to use the &quot;Shibboleth&quot; because I knew it would only undermine your argument.

Basically, you're trying to prove the impossible: That Fingolfin was caonically a king of the Noldor before he arrived in Middle-earth. He indisputably was not.
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Note: that Michael took out part of my comment so that what he is responding to with 'quite true' is no longer in the full context I posted above. See #10 in my above post for full context.

The Shibboleth does not undermine my position. It supports it.

Basiclly your wrong. I would suggest that if you had read my posts you might note that I have not said Fingolfin was king before he arrived in Middle-earth. I have stated my belief to be that he (like Feanor) was not king he (like Feanor) were only (rival) claimants. Fingolfin did not actually become King until after Maedhros rescue.

11)
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Quote MM:
If you'd read The Silmarillion (and I have certainly provided a few citations to help in this respect) you would see that it certainly does. I'm only quoting the book, after all. To suggest it doesn't support me is rather absurd.

I don't have to find a statement in the book which says &quot;Fingolfin was not king of the Noldor until he reached Middle-earth&quot; because I have already provided sufficient proofs to show who WAS king of the Noldor in Aman at various times. It follows that since Fingolfin wasn't in the very short list of kings, he wasn't king of the Noldor.

You will find absolutely no statement anywhere in the book which makes Fingolfin a king while Finwe and Feanor were alive and in Aman.
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You have provided no quote that backs up that
Feanor (or Maedhros) was The King of The Noldor. I have provided various quotes that he was just a claimant to the title. As it does not support you it is not absurd.

I have no need for you to provide such a statement about Fingolfin, as I have not said that about him. I would suggest that you actually read the posts you are responding to.

As for you suggestion that I read The Silmarillion, I will take that under all the due consideration that it deserves.

12)
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Quothe MM:
What I'm responding to has nothing to do with the fact that you keep bringing up the wrong stuff when addressing what I wrote.

I get to pick and choose what I'm referring to, no one else. Leave it at that.
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If this is the case then perhaps you should clarify what you wrote.
What it seems is:
You posted a partial citation that you were using to seemingly suggest that some of Fingon's people could have been on the ships with Feanor. It seemed to suggest the case that the Noldor were not so divided as there were Fingofinians with the Feanorians. Of course I posted the quote in full context where in it shows your error those that were on the ships both fought a Alqualonde and were _bound_ to Feanor. You can of course pick and choose all you want. Which is precisely what you did by providing a _partial_ quote that seemed to support your position, although in full context it does not.

13)
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Quothe MM:

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Quothe Tar-Elenion:
You started this by saying that since Fingon rushed to Feanor's aid Feanor was acknowleged king of all the Noldor (or words to that effect).
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[MM's responce:]
I said no such thing. Please stop putting words into my mouth. That is the most infuriating way to disagree with someone.
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Perhaps you should look at your post 3/21/01 8:53 in which you write:

Quothe Michael Martinez:
&quot;The divisions of the Noldor at this point were not clearly stipulated. Feanor had stranded Fingolfin with all the Noldor whom he felt he could not trust. In fact, since Fingon had rushed to Feanor's aid at Alqualonde, it is apparent that Feanor was stilled acknowledged as king by all the Noldor (on the march).&quot;

I would suggest that you read you own post before accusing others of 'putting words in your mouth'

14)
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Quothe MM:
As established in The Silmarillion. If you had really wanted to bring in &quot;The Shibboleth&quot; to support your argument, you should have done so to begin with so it would be clear that was what you wanted.

And since the &quot;Shibboleth&quot; is irrelevant to The Silmarillion on this matter, it was a complete waste of your and my time (not to mention the time of everyone reading this interminably long exchange of who-said-what).
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It was clear we were discussing the Kingship of the Noldor. I never agreed to and you did not ask that we keep to only what is said in 'The Silmarillion'. If you had only wanted to keep this in 'The Silmarillion' you should have asked when you first posted. I don't accept you trying to put your own personal constraints on me.
I used cites from other sources with no complaint from you until they specifically refuted what you were claiming. As is often the case, if something does not agree with you narrow personal interpretation you cry 'foul'.

You may consider it a waste of your time, but you have no right to speak for me, and I am sure that the others reading this can make up their own mind on whether it is a waste of their time or not. I would suggest you not speak for those who have not given you that right.

15 and 16)
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Quothe MM:

Disallowed, as I stated previously.

Ditto for point 16.
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It is so comforting to know that you make the rules for what is and is not allowed when discussing aspects of the Legendarium.
My points are valid.

17)
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Quothe MM:
Wrong time. Lindil's reference to Fingolfin's rule in Tirion during the Exilic period doesn't change the fact that I was speaking of Feanor's kingship in Tirion after Finwe's death.
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In which case your responce had nothing to do with her reference. Of course Feanor was never king in Tirion. He only laid claim to the Kingship, and the Noldor of Tirion did not accept that claim.

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18 and 19 not responded to.
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20)
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See above. You should drop this silly argument.
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I have not dismissed your arguments as silly etc. I have been responding politely with citations backing up my position.

21)
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Quothe Michael Martinez::
There is no provision in any other text for the kingships of the Noldor in Beleriand arising after the fall of Fingolfin. The &quot;Shibboleth&quot; can only reasonably be accepted as canonical if it A) provides information which is not provided elsewhere without conflicting with primary texts or B) provides information which Christopher Tolkien specifically attributes greater authority to than to other texts.

Quothe Tar-Elenion:
In your opinion. Not in mine.

Quothe Michael Martinez:
I wasn't expressing an opinion. But feel free to correct the facts by citing a relevant text. Use any volume from The History of Middle-earth from Morgoth's Ring onward.

I await correction on this issue with great anticipation.
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'The Shibboleth can only be reasonably accepted...', is an opinion. Specifically yours. It is not my opinion.
Or are you going to suggest that your opinion is actually the rule you have decided on, and naturally everyone is bound to follow it?

The Shibboleth does not say that Noldorin kingships in Beleriand arose only after the Fall of Fingolfin. It says that the Noldor became divided into seperate kingships, which is a different thing altogether, considering that their kingdoms were much more united prior to the Dagor Bragollach.


End note:
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Quothe Michael Martinez:
I don't want to get angry and I don't want to put anyone in a bad light. Those late night messages can sometimes come across pretty rough, though, try as I might not to say anything offensive.
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Compare this statement when reading Michael's posts made after this statement.

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I have edited this post slightly for clarification and typos on 3/24/01. I would have done so sooner but I had work to catch up on.
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Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 3/24/01 6:02:21 pm