Feedback and Suggestion Box

[Alatariel Telemnar]

Some members might find it uncomfortable to post in such a thread that has had posts that are “like a university paper”. They could feel that there is nothing for them to contribute, as others have said. Or possibly find that whatever they say might make others 'judge' them as a member (considering, “many of the posts have been made by some of the 'more-learned' BDers, many of whom frequently post in the Books section”), if what they say is not as ‘high standard’ as everything else. It could simply be that this is not the most interesting section of the book for them. Yes, I hope others will post more in the next few sections and chapters.

[Bêthberry]

Like Squatter, I too wouldl like to see more people post in the discussion. I was pleased, however, to see such people as Orofaniel, Durelin, Firefoot, Saraphim, Arry, Fingolfin II, Kransha, and tar-ancalime post.

Yet, also like Squatter, I don't have the answer to Fingolfin II's statement.

I think posts should be more open and accessible to everyone in the Barrow-Downs, not just a few more 'learned' people.

Fingolfin II, could you explain what you mean by 'more open and accessible'?

Do you mean we limit the discussion solely to LOTR and not bring in any other of Tolkien's writings or his Letters, since many might not have read the Letters or The Silm? (When I first arrived on the Downs, I had read some of Tolkien's essays and minor works, TH and LOTR, but not The Silm and was daunted by how others would off-handedly refer to passages and elements from the Legendarium.)

Or would you prefer not to see outside critics and scholars quoted with their ideas about Tolkien? (I am thinking here of such things as davem's quote from the Proceedings of the Tolkien Society.) Perhaps we need to be more rigorous in focussing the discussion solely on the chapter in question?

Are there differences of style, as Squatter and Alatariel Telemnar have suggested, which you think would make the discussion more inviting? Perhaps when posters such as Fordim Hedgethistle (or myself on the Canonicity thread) use words such as readerly, we need to provide an explanation of the word or idea? Maybe we are using concepts about books which are unfamiliar and some posters would like us to explain them better?

Or is there something about this Chapter by Chapter forum which is different from other Books threads? Or is this rather the kind of difference which exists between Books and, say, Novices and Newcomers?

I don't think anyone who posted wanted to deter others from posting--certainly there is nothing here like the curt, short, sharp style the guys used when I came to BD. Others besides myself addressed posts to people who, for instance, did not post on the Canonicity thread, such as Orofaniel and Durelin (I hope I'm right about this--relying on my faulty memory!). I enjoyed Arry's post about old typewriters and ten-fingured so much that it inspired me to think about Tolkien's self-deprecatory wit. I was very pleased when tar-ancalime took a point about my post and expanded it to a defense of the work of art as art to speak for itself without outside explication.--something I had in fact been planning to do myself in a subsequent post! I still owe replies to Oro and Durelin (RL is placing a heavy limit on my time here these days) but in my delay I find that Son of Númenor has, quite better than I think I could have, provided an explanation of how real life events could be seen to have had a hand in the writing of LOTR without necessarily providing a one-to-one literal correspondence. In short, I think there has been a fair bit of cooperative discussion on the Foreword thread so far.

Fingolfin, I don't want to cut you off from answering, but these ideas have been running in head for some time. Please bear with me while I ponder some other ideas about internet communities.

What possibly is happening is, of course, common to all internet communities which grow and develop with 'new blood'. Some of us have been here for four years, some two years, others a little over or under a year. That creates some difficulties, for the "old timers" have memories of discussions which inform their ideas, memories which the 'newly arrived' don't share. One other unique aspect of the Downs is the age range of people here. We have teenagers to, well, not quite senior citizens, but people in their forties and even *gasp* fifties. This is I think an admirable effect of Tolkien's writing, that he can appeal to such an age range. But it can provide some difficulties when we 'speak' to each other.

Another aspect of internet communities is the sometimes rapid turnover of people. Some stay; others go, for a variety of reasons. I know that some of us, Child and myself particularly and I think Estelyn also and I am sure others, go to great effort to welcome 'newbies' and to encourage them to post. I have spent much delightful time corresponding via PM with posters. And many of them are now gone, at least from the site and some even from all email access. It is hard to be constantly making new acqaintances and then losing them. This is not the 'fault' of anyone, but perhaps it limits the responses of some of the 'old timers' who want to wait to see if the 'newbies' will in fact stay.

And some of us just have our own 'hobby horses' to ride as we challenge each other back and forth about our ideas. (What? Moi ride my own hobby horse?) Isn't this right, Mr. Underhill, Aiwendil, davem, Helen, Heren ? I guess this is part of how we know each other and the interest we take in each and we have to learn to make room for new people to find a place within this ebb and flow of talk.

Posting on discussion boards takes courage, because we see our ideas 'out there' and have little idea initially what might happen to them. Perhaps if we took more courage to contact posters when we didn't understand something, either via PM or even on a post, we might be able to create a 'common ground of understanding' so that, without necessarily demanding that we all think and write alike, we can feel comfortable listening to each other.


Fingolfin II, I guess I got a little carried away here with ideas. Please feel entirely free to tell me I have either answered my own questions or missed your point or the boat .

(Note, I got told I used too many smilies, so I have removed them. Now I rely on words alone to suggest my gentle touch of humour, at myself, I point out.)

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I think that much of the discussion's nature in the foreword thread is due to the nature of the foreword -- the misgivings of some here, myself included, that this chapter-by-chapter subforum will become dominated by a few "learned" people (read, perhaps, windbags such as myself) will probably be allayed when we get into the discussion of the story itself.

Those of us who are or who become more regular posters might be able to help this along by attempting to have our first posts for each chapter move toward asking questions and dangling provocative ideas rather than making set arguments. I find that's always the most useful way for me to proceed: I have learned a lot from reading other people's responses to my queries/ramblings/ponderings.

I shall also attempt to expunge from my posts all words derived from critical theory!

EDIT -- as a point of interest, the Foreword thread has had over 1200 views on only 75 posts: so I assume that there are a lot of people following the discussion who have yet to contribute. If we undertake to make the discussion more clearly focused on the story (beginning with the Prologue) that will perhaps draw some of them in(?).

[the phantom]

I have not read the foreword discussion but I plan on getting into this chapter by chapter thing relatively soon. In the meanwhile, I'm finding this suggestion box thread rather interesting.

I think posts should be more open and accessible to everyone in the Barrow-Downs, not just a few more 'learned' people.

Fingolfin II, could you explain what you mean by 'more open and accessible'?....Or would you prefer not to see outside critics and scholars quoted with their ideas about Tolkien?

I don't know if that's what he meant, but that certainly is an issue. For one thing, I want to hear what you guys think and I want you to hear what I think. Critics and scholars should take a back seat to us and only be quoted if someone thinks that a point the critic/scholar makes is good and can't possibly be put into better words. Also, when some critic or scholar is quoted they are nearly always speaking in "university paper" language, as Squatter so aptly put it. And I'm sure for many Downers, "university paper" posting equals less fun. This, of course, is not always the case, but it can be.

I haven't read the thread in question, but I can certainly recall viewing other threads that contained lengthy, academic posts that seemed to suck the oxygen right out of the room. The posts were full of words but there was very little meaning per word. This is what happens when a poster has a way to express himself that would use about one tenth the space but elects to take the long road.

I don't think anyone who posted wanted to deter others from posting--certainly there is nothing here like the curt, short, sharp style the guys used when I came to BD.

I don't know what to say about that. It was in part the curt, short, sharp style I saw that made me join this forum. That sort of style gets across the same idea in less space and makes me smile at the same time.

For instance, let's say someone starts a new thread and asks "Why did Feanor want to chase Morgoth so bad?" I would prefer to see someone post something like this-

So, did you miss the parts where it said-
1) Feanor loved his dad
2)Morgoth killed his dad
3)Feanor loved his jewels
4)Morgoth stole his jewels

I'd rather see that than some super long post dripping with psychology terms that ends up saying no more than the previous post. The only way I'd want a long post is if it says a lot more. You know, begins to ponder why Feanor felt this way about this, and what he might've been thinking at this time, and what he might've said to so and so at this other time. But all too often it's just smart sounding posts taking up way too much space.

I love the curt, short, sharp style.

But of course this discussion isn't going to mean anything once we get past the foreword because I agree with these posts-

What I hope is that in moving into the actual chapters more people will contribute to discussion.

I think once we hit "fun" chapters, more people will want to throw in their two cents.

I agree that the foreword isn't the most interesting part of the book for a lot of readers. I'm sure that the Prologue and A Long-Expected Party will draw a lot more people into the discussion who are more interested in Hobbits than allegory versus applicability.

I'm sure more people will be posting soon.

[davem]

I can only say that I was slightly disappointed that we started with the Forword, as I knew it could only lead to analysis of Tolkien the man & his motives. I went too far in such analysis, & possibly deterred some others from posting - if so I'm sorry.

I can see valid reasons for sticking to LotR, or at least to LotR, Hobbit - possibly with relevant references to the Sil, leaving aside Letters, Home, UT, Trying as far as possible to approach LotR as if its all we have.

The only danger is the thread decending into 'I think Aragorn is really cool' or I really liked it when the Ringwraiths attacked the Hobbits under Weathertop', etc. As long as it doesn't go that way I think it will be a very interesting experience.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Davem, you said:

The only danger is the thread decending into 'I think Aragorn is really cool' or I really liked it when the Ringwraiths attacked the Hobbits under Weathertop', etc.

I could not agree more that we don't want the thread(s) to be dominated by comments like this, but such comments -- when made -- are wonderful opportunities to open up the discussion. If (and when) we have a poster say "I think Aragorn is cool" we can (and should) ask that poster why Aragorn is cool? If the poster is particularly singling out the attack at Weathertop, we ask "Why is this attack the cool part about Aragorn, rather than his ability to heal Frodo after?"

Everyone's opinion springs from a response to something in the text, and every opinion is extremely useful to everyone else's understanding. This is not just a pose I adopt for the sake of discussion on the BD, it's a truth that I live by in both my personal and professional life!

[Fingolfin II]

I think The Phantom is right when he/she says:

Critics and scholars should take a back seat to us and only be quoted if someone thinks that a point the critic/scholar makes is good and can't possibly be put into better words.

I agree that the Foreword doesn't offer much scope for many people to post, as it is concerned largely with Tolkien's motives and thoughts. However, when we discuss the actual book I think more people will participate as they'll realise they don't need to write 2 or 3 pages on the events that occur. So by following The Phantom's advice (quoted above), hopefully less people will be put off by how long the posts are and the seemingly 'deep' discussion (i.e. about Theology and other myths, etc.) and will have something worthwhile to contribute, even if it's only two or three lines long. So, Bêthberry that's what I mean about making posts 'more open and accessible' to everyone, by not getting carried away with (sometimes obscure) aspects of the book that people may not have a knowledge of, but to stick to the point and something everyone can relate to (i.e. Aragorn's quest for King). I admit that making posts 'more open and accessible' was a rather vague statement though .

In answer to your comment on the age gap between some Barrow-Downs users I totally agree. I'm only fifteen, whereas others are much older and some are even younger. This does contribute to potential misunderstandings between people who have been on for a longer time, and those who have not.

However, I also believe that while more 'experienced' posters should aim to try and make their post so everyone can reply (I realise that this is not always possible, especially in debates about HoME and The Letters), the onis should also be on new posters to contribute to the discussion themselves.

Hope that all makes sense.

EDIT: What I should have said is that the discussions should be 'more open and accessible' to everyone.

[Durelin]

I agree that the foreword isn't the most interesting part of the book for a lot of readers.

Oh rats...I think then, that I will step back and let those who find the rest of the book more interesting post their brains out!

the discussions should be 'more open and accessible' to everyone.

Are they really not accessible? I believe the accessibility of a discussion is entirely up to the individual poster. Forgive my horrid use of metaphors, but: 'the door is there, and they must open it.'

For my part, I think this 'Chapter-By-Chapter' discussion will get many new posters into the in-depth discussions, and hopefully help make them a permenant browser and poster of the Books forum. I know that this is what is has done for me, I hope. I truly have missed out for quite some time...

-Durelin

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And some of us just have our own 'hobby horses' to ride as we challenge each other back and forth about our ideas.

very true . Suppose I do not dare swim out into deep waters besides shallow pools of my interest, but I'm good at splashing in there where I can feel the ground under my toes

Not to stray off to personal self-analysis - to the benefit of the discussion to come, I remember in the past when it was done in the chat room, the preliminaries were made to find out how well (and in what way) the text itself was understood. Sharku was asking questions as to how well do we know meanings of rare words. Only after 15 minutes of such a warm-up the discussion proper took off. I can not tell the means of doing it on the board (as opposed to chatroom), but I liked idea at its time, maybe recalling it here may give someone an inspiration to come up with something

well...


edit: cross posted with the phantom here

The retelling of the plot is not a solution - it will make the initial posts a bit of a bore for those who do their homework well, and those who are lazy won't read it anyway
But that kind of quiz may work, you know. But only if combined with something more serious. You'd be drawing newbies in, but scaring old philosophy masticators away, for

Originally Posted by the phantom

some super long post dripping with psychology terms that ends up saying no more than the previous post.

Always says the same thing in a subtly different way. It seems like bringing oxygen back for some

So, the solution probably will be something in between - starting with simple quiz, and than let everybody say it in a way they like. After all, you are bored by some post, you skip it and go on.