Revelations and Realizations

[NightKnight]

About Arwen's heritage: Not only does she have blood from the three elven races (Noldor, Vanyar, Sindar/Teleri (both)) and maia, she also has from all three houses of men: Bëor's house through Beren, Hador's house through Tuor and Haleth's house through Tuor's grandmother, Hareth. I actually calculated exactly how much it was from each, and I posted it somewhere in the ME Mirth forum.

[Carnimírië]

I must have read the poem that begins "From dark Dunharrow in the dim morning" at least five times, but I just realized that it's written in alliterative verse. I had never noticed that before.

Maybe it takes a long time for me to understand things, but I also just realized that "Forgoil" (Strawheads) is a sort of blond joke, the dark-haired Dunlendings use that name on the yellow-haired Rohirram.

[galadriel'smaiden]

Wow. I should visit my own threads more often. (smiley use excuse)

Kransha and Finwe-

Can we revisit the Faramir/Boromir/Imrahil thing? I am still way confused on thier relationship.

[Fingolfin II]

Imrahil's sister Finduilas is the mother of Faramir and Boromir- thus Imrahil is their uncle. He is also Eowyn's uncle-in-law (as she married Faramir).

Imrahil's daughter Lothiriel married Eomer, making Imrahil Eomer's father-in-law. Faramir is Eomer's brother-in-law, since he married his sister, Eowyn.

Here's a rough family tree below, including only Denethor, Faramir, Boromir, Imrahil, Lothiriel, Finduilas, Eomer and Eowyn. Oh, and it also contains Imrahil's father, Adrahil . Don't mind the dots- they're just there to space it out properly.

............................................Adrahil
......................................._____|_____ _
......................................|........... .......|
..............................Imrahil.............Finduilas = Denethor
..................................|............... ............____|____
..................................|............... ...........|.............|
...........................Lothiriel = Eomer*..Boromir....Faramir = Eowyn*


*Denotes that Eomer and Eowyn are brother and sister.

[Bombadil]

I realized the other day, and mentioned it on the defective weapons thread, that if Frodo had not been healed from being stabbed form the witchking, there'd be 9 huge scary Nazgul, and one little hobbit in a black cloak running around. How funny!

[galadriel'smaiden]

Bombadil, there was a whole thread on that very subject in Middle Earth Mirth! I made it very uncool with one stupid post though...

[Bombadil]

Oops! How silly of me, I shall look it up!

[Lobelia]

Originally Posted by Bombadil

I realized the other day, and mentioned it on the defective weapons thread, that if Frodo had not been healed from being stabbed form the witchking, there'd be 9 huge scary Nazgul, and one little hobbit in a black cloak running around. How funny!

Chuckle! Amusing idea, the mind boggles ... but I vaguely recall Frodo being told that what would have happened would be that Frodo would be stuck in Sauron's presence being tormented by having to watch Sauron wearing the Ring.

Or maybe he'd have set up house wioth Gollum.

[Ardamir the Blessed]

'The Shibboleth of Fëanor', note 53:

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwe and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth.

[As is said in the text at this point Arwen was descended from Finwë both in the line of Fingolfin (through Elrond) and in the line of Finarfin (through Celebrían); but she was also descended from Elwë (Thingol) through Elrond's mother Elwing, and through Galadriel's mother Eärwen from Olwë of Alqualondë. She was not directly descended from Ingwë, but her fore-mother Indis was (in earlier texts) the sister of Ingwë (X.261-2, etc.), or (in the present work, p. 343) the daughter of his sister. It is hard to know what my father had in mind when he wrote the opening of this note.]

[ninlaith]

I just want to send something out into the void. Most think that it was J.K Rowling who came up with the black cloaked deamons and certain phrases but it was really....wait can you guess...YES! It was Tolkien. Many think J.K's dementors inspired the ringwraiths.....please.....look at the years between the books publishings and who came first, we're talking decades here. And the phrase "Something wicked this way comes!" Yeah that was Tolkiens as well. J.K deserves credit for her accomplishments, however, it is possible for writers to be inspired by other writers.

[Guinevere]

I am sure no one in this forum would think that, ninlaith!

"Something wicked this way comes!" I thought that was Shakespeare! (Macbeth)
And where in Tolkien's work did you find that phrase, pray ?

[Bombadil]

I believe that is Macbeth. Ironic it is too, for the witches say it about Macbeth.

[ninlaith]

oh don't get me wrong it was in that English play ,however, it was said by Sam in one of the last chapters of ROTK I can't remember for the life of me which but i remember thinking wait...that song in Harry Potter said that...sorry I just have alot of friends who like Harry Potter and choose to pick a fight about who was the better author and who said what first.......sorry. oh well everyone else wins i lose.

[Bombadil]

That's cool, I didn't know it was used in LOTR. Oi, I don't think you can compare the two authors. J.K. Rowling's books give me a different sort of thrill, one so different than what I get from Tolkien's books, it's easy to find those who are fans of one and not the other.

[Lobelia]

Originally Posted by Bombadil

I believe that is Macbeth. Ironic it is too, for the witches say it about Macbeth.

Quite right! To be precise, "By the pricking of my thumbs/Something wicked this way comes."

As for JKR and the phrase, it wasn't even in the novel, only part of a choral piece in the film, based on the Shakespeare text.

Tolkien didn't even LIKE Shakespeare and he felt right cheated by Macbeth, especially the Birnam Wood business, which, as we know, was one of the reasons for the Ents, i.e. what if Birnam Wood really did come to Dunsinane? I am quite sure he would have been offended at the notion that he had a character quote from the Bard!

[The Saucepan Man]

Tolkien didn't even LIKE Shakespeare and he felt right cheated by Macbeth, especially the Birnam Wood business, which, as we know, was one of the reasons for the Ents, i.e. what if Birnam Wood really did come to Dunsinane?

I am not sure that Tolkien had a wholesale dislike of Shakespeare, although the line from Macbeth which you refer to certainly irked him and was the inspiration for the Ents' march on Isengard.

Whatever feelings he may have had with regard to Shakespeare's works, however, it didn't stop him nicking and adapting for Aragorn the "All that glisters is not gold" line from Merchant of Venice.

[InklingElf]

Originally Posted by ninlaith

I just want to send something out into the void. Most think that it was J.K Rowling who came up with the black cloaked deamons and certain phrases but it was really....wait can you guess...YES! It was Tolkien. Many think J.K's dementors inspired the ringwraiths.....please.....look at the years between the books publishings and who came first, we're talking decades here. And the phrase "Something wicked this way comes!" Yeah that was Tolkiens as well. J.K deserves credit for her accomplishments, however, it is possible for writers to be inspired by other writers.

who is "most" ninlaith? I think alot of people -- well the ones who are time-concious esp. would disprove of such an idea.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

To go back a little bit the linking between the Rohan royal family and the House of Dol Amroth is even more convoluted thing is even more convoluted since in addition to the first cousins Faramir and Lothiriel marrying the siblings Eowyn and Eomer which would have made their children first and second cousins!!! Eowyn and Eomer were already akin to Imrahil because their grandmother Morwen of Lossarnach was despite her title a descendent of a Prince of Dol Amroth. Maybe a sister or aunt of Adrahil married teh lord of Lossarnach ....... you just hope they opened this up a bit before the noble visages of the Swan princes were afflicted by a Hapsburg jaw.....

YES!

[Morsul the Dark]

my great discovery sam and rosie had 13 children