Are They Rhinos? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Perky Ent · 06-02-2004, 07:30 AM

Well, upon watching my 18 round of RotK, I realized something very odd. In the seen with Grond, there are these two weird creatures pulling it twords the gate. They look very much like Rhinos, because of their build and one hord. Then I thought, maybe it's a new breed Sauron made from Mumakil, like turning elves into orcs. Then I thought they were difformed Mumakil. But one thing I think I can say is that it comes from Harad or some non-West Middle Earth place. And since no one in the movie recognises it, and I can't remember it from the book, can someone inlighten me?

I guess I never saw it because of all of RotK, it's hard to remember one detail when so many cool things are going on

Elianna · 06-02-2004, 12:04 PM

Yeah, they do kinda look like rhinos. It's certain that Sauron had them, maybe brought from Harad, but rised in Mordor, 'cause they're pulling Grond and there are no Haradrim around. They'd have to be VERY difformed mûmakil if at all, because the creatures which pulled Grond they're horns were for certain on the top of their heads, but the mûmakil's tusks are just very overgrown teeth (if we can assume that they're the same as elephants).

Maybe they're the M-E version of rhinos like mûmakil are the M-E version of elephants.

Son of Númenor · 06-02-2004, 12:51 PM

It's safe to say that they aren't mûmakil, & equally safe to say that they are an invention of Peter Jackson & Co. They look cool, though.

Thorongil · 06-02-2004, 02:15 PM

I asked the same question some time ago. Maybe you'll find what you want here:

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2968

lore_master · 06-02-2004, 02:46 PM

i have the "art of the Return of the king" book and in it some of the artists said that it was just an invention they created so they could have more creatures and not have the mumukhail pull Grond

The Perky Ent · 06-02-2004, 04:28 PM

Yeah. It's probably PJ being his creative self. However, I would like to know what he calls them. That's a question!

**The Saucepan Man** · 06-02-2004, 05:41 PM

Quote:

they are an invention of Peter Jackson & Co

Not entirely, Son of Númenor. As Elrond of Rivendell said in the thread to which Thorongil linked, Tolkien does refer to great beasts pulling Grond:

Quote:

Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it.

I don't think that Tolkien ever describes the beasts, so their appearance is pretty much a matter of interpretation. Personally, I think the designers did pretty well. They appear to be based on a prehistoric mammal called an Arsinoitherium which, despite its appearance is not related to the rhinoceros, but belongs to an extinct group.

Edit: Ah, found some pictures of the beasties

Son of Númenor · 06-02-2004, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by Sir Saucepan:
"I don't think that Tolkien ever describes the beasts, so their appearance is pretty much a matter of interpretation."

Or sub-creation.

Lathriel · 06-04-2004, 08:06 PM

I always thought they were Rhinos coming from far Harad.
I thought they were neatly done. They could have been the ancestors of the real rhinosorous.
However when I first watched the movie I already noticed them and I thought to myself "COOL!!!!"

Arwen Evenstar · 06-13-2004, 05:07 PM

Not rhinos, but I`m sure they are related. Kinda like the Mumakil and elephants.

Arwen Evenstar · 06-13-2004, 05:13 PM

Not rhinos, but I`m sure they are related. Kinda like the Mumakil and elephants.

Olorin_TLA · 06-29-2004, 10:11 AM

With regard to Saucepan man's post, only a few lines before that quote Tolkien refers specifically to the mumakil as "great beasts".

But still, if they really wanted ot have different creatures, why not go for John Howe's version of them, since he was one of the lead artists on the film? I don't have a pic on me, but in a drawing of his of the Siege of Gondor he has these huge things, like twisted great beats of burden (kind of an awesome ox, but without the "cowness" which might otherwise look a bit silly.cute

) - now those are far better creatures imho than our hornéd film-friends.

06-02-2004, 07:30 AM	#1
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Are They Rhinos? Well, upon watching my 18 round of RotK, I realized something very odd. In the seen with Grond, there are these two weird creatures pulling it twords the gate. They look very much like Rhinos, because of their build and one hord. Then I thought, maybe it's a new breed Sauron made from Mumakil, like turning elves into orcs. Then I thought they were difformed Mumakil. But one thing I think I can say is that it comes from Harad or some non-West Middle Earth place. And since no one in the movie recognises it, and I can't remember it from the book, can someone inlighten me? I guess I never saw it because of all of RotK, it's hard to remember one detail when so many cool things are going on __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

06-02-2004, 12:04 PM	#2
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	Yeah, they do kinda look like rhinos. It's certain that Sauron had them, maybe brought from Harad, but rised in Mordor, 'cause they're pulling Grond and there are no Haradrim around. They'd have to be VERY difformed mûmakil if at all, because the creatures which pulled Grond they're horns were for certain on the top of their heads, but the mûmakil's tusks are just very overgrown teeth (if we can assume that they're the same as elephants). Maybe they're the M-E version of rhinos like mûmakil are the M-E version of elephants. __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

06-02-2004, 12:51 PM	#3
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 515	It's safe to say that they aren't mûmakil, & equally safe to say that they are an invention of Peter Jackson & Co. They look cool, though. __________________ "This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement."

06-02-2004, 02:15 PM	#4
Thorongil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The Elvenpath Posts: 780	I asked the same question some time ago. Maybe you'll find what you want here: http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=2968 __________________ To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. ~Sun Tzu

06-02-2004, 02:46 PM	#5
lore_master Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Valhalla Posts: 116	i have the "art of the Return of the king" book and in it some of the artists said that it was just an invention they created so they could have more creatures and not have the mumukhail pull Grond __________________ As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think

06-02-2004, 04:28 PM	#6
The Perky Ent Maniacal Mage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Setting sail for Umbar, with Firefoot at my side! Posts: 3,297	Yeah. It's probably PJ being his creative self. However, I would like to know what he calls them. That's a question! __________________ 'But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.'

06-02-2004, 05:46 PM	#8
Son of Númenor A Shade of Westernesse Join Date: May 2004 Location: The last wave over Atalantë Posts: 515	Originally posted by Sir Saucepan: "I don't think that Tolkien ever describes the beasts, so their appearance is pretty much a matter of interpretation." Or sub-creation. __________________ "This miserable drizzling afternoon I have been reading up old military lecture-notes again:- and getting bored with them after an hour and a half. I have done some touches to my nonsense fairy language - to its improvement."

06-04-2004, 08:06 PM	#9
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	I always thought they were Rhinos coming from far Harad. I thought they were neatly done. They could have been the ancestors of the real rhinosorous. However when I first watched the movie I already noticed them and I thought to myself "COOL!!!!" __________________ Back again

06-13-2004, 05:07 PM	#10
Arwen Evenstar Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 131	Not rhinos, but I`m sure they are related. Kinda like the Mumakil and elephants.

06-13-2004, 05:13 PM	#11
Arwen Evenstar Registered User Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 131	Not rhinos, but I`m sure they are related. Kinda like the Mumakil and elephants.

06-29-2004, 10:11 AM	#12
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	With regard to Saucepan man's post, only a few lines before that quote Tolkien refers specifically to the mumakil as "great beasts". But still, if they really wanted ot have different creatures, why not go for John Howe's version of them, since he was one of the lead artists on the film? I don't have a pic on me, but in a drawing of his of the Siege of Gondor he has these huge things, like twisted great beats of burden (kind of an awesome ox, but without the "cowness" which might otherwise look a bit silly.cute ) - now those are far better creatures imho than our hornéd film-friends. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"