Concerning Elf-friends

[Legolas]

"They are portrayed by the honorable professor Tolkien..."

...you mean, by the elves and hobbits who wrote these histories? I suspect that the books would read similar of elves if dwarves had written them.

[Fingolfin II]

They are portrayed by the honorable professor Tolkien (and, incidentally, Mr. Jackson as well) as greedy, crude, self-centered, savage, selfish, barbaric, and almost as a rule always concerned with nothing other than personal gain.

Alaksoron, while I agree with you to an extent I don't think that is entirely true. Certainly, some dwarves are portrayed as greedy and selfish (i.e. Mim), but the majority are not. Dwarves do care for gold and weapons and other materials manufactured by hand but I can't remember an example where they are shown to be savage and barbaric.

Some dwarves, such as Gimli, overcame their natural lust for gold and gems and were anything but greedy and self-centered. For this reason (but mostly because of his love for Legolas and Galadriel), Gimli became an Elf-friend. Would you call the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost Elf-friends beacuse they were friends with Eöl? Also, a reason for the animosity between Elves and Dwarves is because of the way they were treated by Elves originally. Thingol and Caranthir in particular did not treat Dwarves with the greatest respect. As Legolas said, dwarves have been stereotyped in this way, even though a minority of them were actually so. Also, don't forget there were also lots of greedy, barbaric and selfish Elves- Maeglin, Celegorm, Caranthir and Eol come to my mind.

[Kuruharan]

Ha! I've managed to hijack another thread!

(Scratches another mark on the side of his CPU, adding to an already impressive collection.)

Just to provide a few textual references before moving back to the real topic at hand.

They are a tough, thrawn race for the most part, secretive, laborious, retentive of the memory of injuries (and benefits), lovers of stone, of gems, of things that take shape under the hands of the craftsmen rather than of things that live by their own life. But they are not evil by nature, and few ever served the Enemy of free will…
Appendix F

[the dwarves] intended to pay Bilbo really handsomely for his services…they would all have done their best to get him out of trouble, if he got into it, as they did in the case of the trolls at the beginning of their adventues before they had any particular reasons for being grateful to him…dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are descent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don’t expect too much.
The Hobbit

[Dwarves] are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil as hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples…
Of Aulë and Yavanna

…the thoughts of Dwarven hearts are hard to fathom…they used their rings only for the getting of wealth…
Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

There was another passage out of the Appendices that I would have liked to use, but I could not find it. Suffice it to say that the picture of the Dwarves is one of a people who are not particularly interested in gaining dominion over others (unlike certain Elves I could name) and they were known as keepers of their word (unlike certain Elves I could name). Tolkien considered the desire for domination to be at least as bad as greed, and one particularly fiery Elf that I have in mind (who is often lauded as being a wonderfully marvelous Elf) was quite eaten up by both at the same time.

*Ahem* anyway…as promised, back to the topic at hand.

Would you call the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost Elf-friends beacuse they were friends with Eöl?

I think Eöl was a special case. He was not considered to be a “mainstream” Elf. As Elves go, he was really rather strange. I don’t think that friendship with him would qualify anybody for anything.

[Alaksoron]

Qoute:
"Suffice it to say that the picture of Dwarves is that of a people not particularly concerned with gaining dominion over others (unlike certain Elves I could name)"

I detest that! It is the responsibility of the Elves as the superior race on the planet to be the Guide and Protector of the *little brother* races (i.e. men and dwarves) even if that commision requires them to maintain some sort of control or even rule over the aforementioned. The Elves are the most superior, most developed race on Middle-Earth and don't anyone say differerent.
"An ancient and noble race, the High Elves have refined their martial skills and magical prowess over the centuries. As the primitive tribes of men fought amongst themselves the.... Elves navigated the oceans and mapped the heavens. They have watched empires wise and fall....."
-http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammerworld/warhammer/highelves.html

[Kuruharan]

Why, may I ask, are you trying to prove a point about Middle-earth by quoting from Warhammer? While Tolkien’s concepts heavily influenced Warhammer, they are not the same thing.

When attempting to discuss Tolkien, it might be considered best if the participants confine themselves to materials that are actually germane to the subject.

It might also be a good idea, if you wished to continue this discussion, to start a new thread about it, rather than wrenching this poor thing more off course than it is already.

[HerenIstarion]

Ai, ai, Kuruharan, you should have opened up something named "concerning dwarf-friends' not getting those bearded shorties onto noble "big brother' related discussion

Well, Alaksoron, you really make it sound like "big brother is watching over you"
I never intended to sound like I thought anyone were obliged to serve elves. On the contrary, the fact of service provided when such is not requested may make elves feel grateful and so give out such a title as of an elf-friend. Indeed, it was the case of great wonder to elves of Beleriand, that short lived men gave up their really precious lives for elves, in a war, which, technically, had nothing to do with them. Really, why should Three Houses care for some jewels Morgoth and Noldor were quarreling over?

As for the purpose of Having both men and elves around rather than starting it all over again here at the spot, I better readdress you to the following thread

Enjoy.

Ah, and yes, welcome to the Barrow-Downs

[tar-ancalime]

I think Eöl was a special case. He was not considered to be a “mainstream” Elf. As Elves go, he was really rather strange. I don’t think that friendship with him would qualify anybody for anything.

Are you sure? I think you get entered into a raffle or something.

I wonder what the prize would be...

[Alaksoron]

[QUOTE=HerenIstarion]
Well, Alaksoron, you really make it sound like "big brother is watching over you"
I never intended to sound like I thought anyone were obliged to serve elves.

And why, praytell, are we not obliged to serve the elves?