Tolkien- For the Love of Eowyn!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

there would surely have been someone (a descendant of one of Theoden's four sisters) to take over the reins of government. There had never been a ruling queen in Gondor anyway so why would she expect to take the throne?

[Théoden: ]"Is there none whom you would name? In whom do my people trust?"
"In the House of Eorl," answered Háma.
"But Éomer I cannot spare; nor would he stay," said the king; "and he is the last of that House."
"I said not Éomer," answered Háma. "And he is not the last. There is Éowyn, daughter of Éomund, his sister. She is fearless and high-hearted. All love her. Let her be as lord to the Eorlingas, while we are gone."

Japan might have its first empress, just because the people wants it so. These people want Éowyn. Who could tell her not to take the throne?

[Olorin_TLA]

Plus Númenor had its share of Ruling Queens so the Gondor point is kind of moot.

[Lalaith]

Whoops. I meant Rohan had never had a queen. But I take your points, Nilpaurion and Olorin.

[davem]

Originally Posted by H-I

et for those holding Tolkien unable to describe man/woman relationship, Kronos, I should recommend Aldarion and Erendis, as found in Unfinished Tales. There is a good read on it.

Yet the story of Aldarion & Erendis is more complicated, at least according to Elizabeth Currie, in her book The Uncharted Realms of Tolkien:

Erendis is indeed a feminist of sorts; but hers is a feminism which I think few women would want much to do with. she does not go beyond the stereotypes of her culture; she merely accepts some & inverts others. Erendis scorns the doings of men just as many men at that time scorned the domestic doings of women. When in her husbands absence she establishes her own household, it is wholly feminine. For instance, there is no music in Erendis’ house; playing instruments is men’s business, & since there are no men, there is no music, apart from the songs the women servants sing to accomppany their work...

Erendis’s great faults are pride & self-will. At the beginning of their courtship, she is said to think that Aldarion ‘was too high’. Yet she looked on no man with favour thereafter, * every suiitor was dismissed.’ Too high or not, Erendis knows who she wants to marry & is more tahn loathe to let him go...Erendis is depicted as knowing full well what she does. ‘Never would Erendis take less, that she might not lose all; & fearing the sea, & begrudging to all ships the felling of trees which she loved, she determined that she must utterly defeat the Sea & the ships, or else herself be defeated utterly.’ ....She is determined that Aldarion will be hers & hers alone - to make him subsume his personality in hers, in a grotesque inversion of the turn-of-the-century theory that a woman should ‘dislove herself’ in her husband (enshrined in Wagner’s opera Lohengrin among other places)....It can well be said that Aldarion has the same faullts, but he at least is shown as trying to share his interests & enthusiasms with his wife, whereas Erendis meets all overtures with blank indifference.

The over-domesticated aspect of Erendis extends to her understanding - or lack of it - of the wider world. Erendis is a creature of the island realm of Numenor. ...If Erendis acknowledges the existence of a wider world, then she will have to accept that her model of how the world works, which is based only upon Numenor, is not necessarily right. She will have to change her mind because of an external influence, & the change is potentially drastic. If that change is too big, then she will indeed ‘die’; she will no lloger be who she thinks she is right now. And Erendis cannot make the leap of imagination to see taht the new person might be beneficially different; that she might grow as the result of her experiences. ..

Indeed, Erendis has more than a touch of Denethor’s attitude; if she cannot have exactly what she wants she will accept nothing else. Failing to see that changes she has not willed may lead to growth & unforseen good things, Erendis falls into stagnation. She has to dominate all around, & when that fails she has no idea what to do next except to remain within the small sphere where she does have power over what happens. It is an interesting version of one of Tolkien’s long-term preoccupations, the rights & wrongs of power & free will.

Erendis’s disinterest in the wider world, then, fits exactly with her character; ultimately she is a shallow, self-centred woman who cares for others only as they serve her will. Those who can neither affect her nor be affected by her are dismissed as irrelevant; they might as well not exist...

Her unjust actions mean misery for her own decendants, & she proves unwise as a ruler of a people as well. Ancalime neglects all her father’s overseas policies, & it can be argued , following one of Tolkien’s versions of the history of Numenor, that this is not just a minor mistake...

As blind to the world as her mother, Ancalime protects Numenor’s trees at the cost of massive, uncontrolled deforestation elsewhere. Nor does she ever think of extending her care to people who may not themselves be Numenoreans, but who are being seriously affected by things that Numenoreans do - things that could be controlled if Ancalime wanted to do so. By pretending taht greed & racism do not exist & so not bothering to combat them, Ancalime allows the first hint of the Sahdow to enter Numenor - the Shadow of evil that will ultimately lead to the destruction of the island & its people together...It is a devastating picture of what happens when people can neither hold to their ‘proper’ roles nor transcend them, & as such, I think it is in accord with Tolkien’s other writings.

I wonder if that will spark any comments!

[Mithalwen]

OhI find the Aldarion and Erendis story so interesting....... I mean it is very different from the vast majority of relationships in the books...... which are ...basically fairy stories .... love at first sightand whatever trials and tribulations the couple go through the problems aren't with the relationship .....

The exceptions which spring to mind are Faramir and Eowyn, the unwitting incestuous relationship of Turin and Niniel and the stupendously dysfunctional but so modern one of Aldarion and Erendis... it always slightly surprises me that it was really written by the dear Prof, who seems to have fallen in love with more or less the first girl he met and remained devoted to her for the rest of his life.. One can only assume he was an acute observer of less idyllic relationships....

I always think of that other " fairytale-that -wasn't " when I read Aldarion and Erendis - The Prince and Princess of Wales (can open: worms everywhere?)


It is interesting the idea comparing Erendis with Denethor ..... since the other exception I thought of was the largely untold one of Denethor and Finduilas....

[Lyta_Underhill]

Indeed, I was intrigued by the story of Aldarion and Erendis, and felt it to be one of the greater arguments for Tolkien's ability to closely draw characters (for anyone who would say his characterizations were two-dimensional). The relationship begins with the promise of its own decay, and perhaps the most tragic part of it is the corruption of Ancalime's worldview and the beginning of the Numenoreans' separation from the rest of the world. Could one have argued that the "intermarriage" between one of Elros' line and one of the lesser (non-Elven ancestry) lines of the Edain was an underlying cause for the disparity in the worldview of these two? It seemed to be an undercurrent and whispered among some, but, in reality, neither Aldarion nor Erendis could overcome their personal agendas and personal realities. They didn't mesh, and they didn't wish to give up anything in order to mesh. Somehow, I can't help thinking that Aldarion could have explained his doings a little better, while Erendis could have made an effort to meet her husband halfway. And the greatest sin of all of them was Erendis' use of Ancalime as a living instrument of psychological revenge against Aldarion and all he stood for.

I have a hard time thinking of Erendis as a feminist; rather I think of her as tragically blinded and separate, afflicted with a sickness that, unlike Eowyn's, was not cured. The flavor is more modern (if dysfunctional can be said to be modern), the characterizations much more closely drawn, less epic, and yet a keen window into the seeds of the downfall of Numenor. Thanks, davem and H-I for bringing up this tidbit from the UT!

Cheers!
Lyta

[akhtene]

After reading “Aldarion and Erendis” I still can’t make up my mind whether to despise her or pity. Of course, she made hell out of her own life and of others’ around her (see DAVEM’s post). On the other hand, what of her own expectations and the promises she had got? Wasn’t her man supposed to be true to his word? Anyway, the criticism seems to me reasonably justified, but then, weren’t some people here blaming Eowyn for quite the opposite? (nothing personal meant). Let’s see: Eowyn speaks of her feelings to Aragorn (too outspoken); Erendis doesn’t pursue Aldarion (but she’s shrewd and knowing full well what she does)
Eowyn wishes to break out of her cage (uncaring for her people, social role etc); Erendis hates the idea of leaving the Island (over-domesticated)
Eowyn wishes to go to battle – for no matter what reasons (unwomanly); Erendis doesn’t care for the problems of the outside world (unwise)
Eowyn eventually finds her true love (perhaps too soon and too easily); Erendis looked on no man with favour and later set up a female household (again too shrewd and a man-hater) etc

Well, the comparison is very shallow of course, but I just feel one can criticize people for quite the opposite reasons. Still, I love Eowyn and sympathise with Erenis (at least a bit)
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There is one more thing I noticed while reading A&E. Is theirs the only couple in which a husband is superior to a wife? (I mean descent and life-span) And the union proves a real disaster. Any comments to that?

[HerenIstarion]

Welcome back, Akhtene We haven't seen you around for what? an year? Nice to have you posting again

Not to be overly off topic, let me assure you that I still stand by what I've said on page 1

Cheers

[Mithalwen]

Having just read HI's original post..... well it is an oversimplification to say that men and women are different - though not untrue ..... sometimes the mind is not in alignment with the body ...... some men have feminized brains and some women masculinisxed ones, possibley due to hormone influences in utero ...

Also abart from the "nature" ... look at "nurture" - Eowyn was raised from an early age without real female role models - orphaned she goes to live with a widowed uncle, his son and her brother ...all who are or become mighty warriors..... especially given that her aunt died in childbirth it isn't surprising that she seems to reject her femininity....

It is so easy to understand her frustration......it is so very recently even in the west that women have had a choice .....

[HerenIstarion]

I'm bringing this up, for its own sake, as well as for CbC discussion's (we are in Rohan, and soon A will meet E )

See also: Hope - lessly in love by Estelyn Telcontar

cheers