Was Eru a Sadist? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 05-15-2004, 06:45 AM

Bethberry Wow!

I was looking at the world through 'Tolkien-coloured' glasses there (though I admit leaning towards that view myself).

As Garth said re Ainulindale:'It is nothing less than an attempt to justify God's creation of an imperfect world filled with suffering, grief & loss.'

This is an imperfect world, & it is filled with suffering, grief & loss - & that's simply the fact for most of humanity, & always has been. But then, if you're a believer, how do you account for God not putting it all right? You require an explanation - at least one that will work for you.

When you say : I know people for whom this does not follow and I would not like to see their experience disavowed. Can you really speak for them?:

I think that's another issue - aren't you talking there about their individual experience of life - their lives, mine, yours, may be happy, untroubled & comfortable, but Tolkien is not attempting to deal with individual happy lives, but with the experience of humanity on this planet through history. Not the relationship of you or I with God, but Humanity's relationship with God down through the ages. My life may be perfectly happy, I may go through from cradle to grave with not a single unpleasant experience, but that does not 'explain away' the inquisition, the Somme, the Holocaust, Hiroshima, 9/11. Or the famines, earthquakes, tidal waves. Or cancer, AIDS, babies born addicted to crack. All of it.

Tolkien is attempting to account for the suffering of humanity, not of individual humans. That's what mythology attempts - to explain our relationship with deity, & why the universe is the way it is.

Of course, there has always been good as well as evil in life - but its the evil we have the problem with, that we feel the need to account for - maybe we have some deep sense that the good doesn't need explaining, because that's how it should be.

Lhunardawen · 05-20-2004, 05:33 AM

I've just watched the movie "Troy" based on Homer's The Iliad, and Greek mythology entered my mind. The Greek gods and godesses are probably the perfect examples of sadistic deities. They just stand by and look down, watching people kill themselves, or sometimes joining in the fun (the way Hera, Helena, and Aphrodite indirectly caused the Trojan War as they fought over the golden apple in Paris' hands). Eru is absolutely not like that.

Bombadil · 05-20-2004, 04:53 PM

For those not familiar with what Lhunardawen is talking about, actually reading the Iliad is your best bet. The movie seldom talks about the Gods which are so prevalent in the poem.

But yes, great point. In that particular mythology the Gods are (with do doubt in my mind) if not sadistic, very wrathful.

Perhaps it would be safer to continue this thread by comparing (and contrasting) the Gods of other Mythology, such as Greek, to Iluvatar. Maybe finding certain qualities of Eru that wouldn't classify him as a sadist, but rather ones that remain mere qualities.

HerenIstarion · 05-21-2004, 12:07 AM

I doubt it is correct to compare Eru with gods of Greek mythology. Those latter bear more likeliness to Valar than Eru Himself, who's proper peers in our world should rather be Holy Trinity, Jehovah and Allah, i.e., Gods of explicitly monotheistic religions with equally explicit strong personalities (so, IMO, Buddhism should be excluded)

mark12_30 · 05-21-2004, 07:59 AM

Free Will was a big risk, but having once made the commitment, there it is.

If I were to pick a "sadist" I'd pick Melkor.

**The Saucepan Man** · 05-21-2004, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Free Will was a big risk, but having once made the commitment, there it is.

Yes, but then again what option did Eru have if he wanted to create Children that were worth creating? As a father, I would rather have children capable of independent thought than mere automatons, even if it means that sometimes (well, often actually

) they do things that I don't like.

Evisse the Blue · 05-22-2004, 05:05 AM

As Saucepan man suggested, I’ll stick with judging Eru from what we can gather from the books.
Re: Galadriel’s mirror: The remarks about the mirror always intrigued me, reminding me of the modern horoscope predictions. Watch this: the mirror shows: ‘things that were, things that are, things that yet may be’, ‘what they desire to see, as well as things unbidden’, ‘some never come to be’. This pretty much covers all there is, doesn’t it?

Anything is possible! It’s as if Eru wants to play upon their creatures’ need and desire for knowing the future by offering them…absolutely nothing at all, that is, even more uncertainty. Unless of course you’re Galadriel, and have the gift of interpreting correctly what you see.
But given Frodo and Sam’s situation, they do see the future, and the future looks bleak. And herein comes Eru’s greatness: by his grace, they are not shown the outcome of their success (Aragorn coronation, everyone singing in their praise, etc), but the worst of what is to come. The matter of choice is clearly laid before them: This is what will happen. ‘Would you still do the right things even if you are reinforced for doing the wrong thing?’ (sorry for the psych terms). So, consequently, they are both tempted to turn back: Frodo sees the personification of his terror, an image that will come back to haunt him again and again, and he momentarily wavers; Sam sees the scouring of the Shire and immediately wants to go home. I am reminded here of Bethberry’s mention that ‘Satan’, as it were, is sometimes a ‘messenger’ of God. But in the end it all proves for the best. In choosing to go on, Frodo and Sam harden their wills against the worst instead of foolishly hoping for the best (hope here used as ‘looking up’ not the higher ‘Estel - trust’).

Re: Clash and Schism causing both discord and marvellous beauty – Now here is an idea that I like…it it esthetically pleasing to my mind, but one can argue against it.
Also one can argue the idea of evil and suffering as necessary. With the risk of straying a bit from Tolkien, I’m reminded of Ivan’ ‘profession of unfaith’ – so to speak (in Dostoievsky’s Brother’s Karamazov): At the very end, when God’s majesty and wisdom is revealed, and the lamb shall sit with the lion and the victim shall embrace his assasin, therefore all sufferance will be found to have a higher meaning, Ivan will understand, but not forgive, and he will still hate God. Because all the benediction that is to come –still a promise of benediction and transcendance – will not be enough to pay for the tears of a single suffering child.
Yeah, there are those of us who will believe that…and as someone said, it’s a matter of opinion.

OT: WARNING SPOILERS: As for Troy - eh...how can you learn anything of the gods and men as gods' puppets from that movie?? The movie does not even show the gods, the beauty contest which is the true reason for the Trojan War is inexistent, and...in a nutshell it's just a war from the history of Ancient Greece. All the magic is gone. Yeah, read the book, rather.

05-15-2004, 06:45 AM	#1
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Bethberry Wow! I was looking at the world through 'Tolkien-coloured' glasses there (though I admit leaning towards that view myself). As Garth said re Ainulindale:'It is nothing less than an attempt to justify God's creation of an imperfect world filled with suffering, grief & loss.' This is an imperfect world, & it is filled with suffering, grief & loss - & that's simply the fact for most of humanity, & always has been. But then, if you're a believer, how do you account for God not putting it all right? You require an explanation - at least one that will work for you. When you say : I know people for whom this does not follow and I would not like to see their experience disavowed. Can you really speak for them?: I think that's another issue - aren't you talking there about their individual experience of life - their lives, mine, yours, may be happy, untroubled & comfortable, but Tolkien is not attempting to deal with individual happy lives, but with the experience of humanity on this planet through history. Not the relationship of you or I with God, but Humanity's relationship with God down through the ages. My life may be perfectly happy, I may go through from cradle to grave with not a single unpleasant experience, but that does not 'explain away' the inquisition, the Somme, the Holocaust, Hiroshima, 9/11. Or the famines, earthquakes, tidal waves. Or cancer, AIDS, babies born addicted to crack. All of it. Tolkien is attempting to account for the suffering of humanity, not of individual humans. That's what mythology attempts - to explain our relationship with deity, & why the universe is the way it is. Of course, there has always been good as well as evil in life - but its the evil we have the problem with, that we feel the need to account for - maybe we have some deep sense that the good doesn't need explaining, because that's how it should be. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

05-20-2004, 04:53 PM	#3
Bombadil Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Old Forest Posts: 488	For those not familiar with what Lhunardawen is talking about, actually reading the Iliad is your best bet. The movie seldom talks about the Gods which are so prevalent in the poem. But yes, great point. In that particular mythology the Gods are (with do doubt in my mind) if not sadistic, very wrathful. Perhaps it would be safer to continue this thread by comparing (and contrasting) the Gods of other Mythology, such as Greek, to Iluvatar. Maybe finding certain qualities of Eru that wouldn't classify him as a sadist, but rather ones that remain mere qualities. __________________ "'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'"

05-21-2004, 12:07 AM	#4
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	I doubt it is correct to compare Eru with gods of Greek mythology. Those latter bear more likeliness to Valar than Eru Himself, who's proper peers in our world should rather be Holy Trinity, Jehovah and Allah, i.e., Gods of explicitly monotheistic religions with equally explicit strong personalities (so, IMO, Buddhism should be excluded) __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

05-21-2004, 07:59 AM	#5
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	tuppence Free Will was a big risk, but having once made the commitment, there it is. If I were to pick a "sadist" I'd pick Melkor. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

05-22-2004, 05:05 AM	#7
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	As Saucepan man suggested, I’ll stick with judging Eru from what we can gather from the books. Re: Galadriel’s mirror: The remarks about the mirror always intrigued me, reminding me of the modern horoscope predictions. Watch this: the mirror shows: ‘things that were, things that are, things that yet may be’, ‘what they desire to see, as well as things unbidden’, ‘some never come to be’. This pretty much covers all there is, doesn’t it? Anything is possible! It’s as if Eru wants to play upon their creatures’ need and desire for knowing the future by offering them…absolutely nothing at all, that is, even more uncertainty. Unless of course you’re Galadriel, and have the gift of interpreting correctly what you see. But given Frodo and Sam’s situation, they do see the future, and the future looks bleak. And herein comes Eru’s greatness: by his grace, they are not shown the outcome of their success (Aragorn coronation, everyone singing in their praise, etc), but the worst of what is to come. The matter of choice is clearly laid before them: This is what will happen. ‘Would you still do the right things even if you are reinforced for doing the wrong thing?’ (sorry for the psych terms). So, consequently, they are both tempted to turn back: Frodo sees the personification of his terror, an image that will come back to haunt him again and again, and he momentarily wavers; Sam sees the scouring of the Shire and immediately wants to go home. I am reminded here of Bethberry’s mention that ‘Satan’, as it were, is sometimes a ‘messenger’ of God. But in the end it all proves for the best. In choosing to go on, Frodo and Sam harden their wills against the worst instead of foolishly hoping for the best (hope here used as ‘looking up’ not the higher ‘Estel - trust’). Re: Clash and Schism causing both discord and marvellous beauty – Now here is an idea that I like…it it esthetically pleasing to my mind, but one can argue against it. Also one can argue the idea of evil and suffering as necessary. With the risk of straying a bit from Tolkien, I’m reminded of Ivan’ ‘profession of unfaith’ – so to speak (in Dostoievsky’s Brother’s Karamazov): At the very end, when God’s majesty and wisdom is revealed, and the lamb shall sit with the lion and the victim shall embrace his assasin, therefore all sufferance will be found to have a higher meaning, Ivan will understand, but not forgive, and he will still hate God. Because all the benediction that is to come –still a promise of benediction and transcendance – will not be enough to pay for the tears of a single suffering child. Yeah, there are those of us who will believe that…and as someone said, it’s a matter of opinion. OT: WARNING SPOILERS: As for Troy - eh...how can you learn anything of the gods and men as gods' puppets from that movie?? The movie does not even show the gods, the beauty contest which is the true reason for the Trojan War is inexistent, and...in a nutshell it's just a war from the history of Ancient Greece. All the magic is gone. Yeah, read the book, rather. __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass. Last edited by Evisse the Blue; 05-22-2004 at 05:12 AM.

05-20-2004, 05:33 AM	#2
Lhunardawen Hauntress of the Havens Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IN it, but not OF it Posts: 2,538	I've just watched the movie "Troy" based on Homer's The Iliad, and Greek mythology entered my mind. The Greek gods and godesses are probably the perfect examples of sadistic deities. They just stand by and look down, watching people kill themselves, or sometimes joining in the fun (the way Hera, Helena, and Aphrodite indirectly caused the Trojan War as they fought over the golden apple in Paris' hands). Eru is absolutely not like that.