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Old 05-11-2004, 09:09 PM   #1
Lhunardawen
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kuruharan
I also disagree that technology makes war essentially easier. It makes the process different, and it is certainly more destructive. However, it has its own kind of difficulty.
I agree. I think the more appropriate thing to say is that technology in warfare causes more deaths in a shorter duration of time, as dropping a bomb can kill more people in a while than using swords and bows for a number of, say, hours (or probably even days). Efficiency, that would be the word.
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Old 05-11-2004, 09:25 PM   #2
Son of Númenor
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I see what you are saying Lhunardawen & Kuruharan, but your definition of 'easier' does not seem to be in line with Symestreem's. Surely it is 'easier' to lob missiles from miles away than to engage the enemy in close-range combat, & easier to use nightvision to scan enemy terrain at night than your own naked eyes.

Edit: I did not mean to imply with the above that war has become easier in an economical or humane sense, but merely in the sense that it requires less men & women to risk their lives, requires less tactical 'gambling', & has become more efficient strategically (for the United States & it's allies, anyway ). War is & has always been a horrible way to waste resources & lives.

But anyway, that does not seem the initial purpose of the thread.

Here are a few quotes from the Professor himself that shed some light on the issue at hand:
Quote:
Well the first War of the Machines seems to be drawing to its final inconclusive chapter - leaving, alas, everyone the poorer, many bereaved or maimed and millions dead, and only one thing more triumphant: the Machines. As the servants of the Machines are becoming a privileged class, the Machines are going to be enormously powerful. What's their next move? (Letters, 196)
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Unlike art which is content to create a new secondary world in the mind, it attempts to actualize desire, and so to create power in this World; and that cannot really be done with any real satisfaction. Labour-saving machinery only creates endless and worse labour. (Letters, 75)
Quote:
How I wish the 'infernal combustion' engine had never been invented. Or (more difficult still since humanity and engineers in special are both nitwitted and malicious as a rule) that it could have been put to rational uses - if any... (Letters, 64)
Unfortunately I have no time to write my own thoughts on the subject, but I will be sure to do so later.
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Old 05-11-2004, 10:35 PM   #3
Kuruharan
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Surely it is 'easier' to lob missiles from miles away than to engage the enemy in close-range combat, & easier to use nightvision to scan enemy terrain at night than your own naked eyes.
Not necessarily. The difficulty lies in a different area, I am specifically thinking of the development and maintenance of such weaponry. I have an uncle in that line of work and it is quite hard in its own way, and expeeeensive!!!!!

Certainly it is easier to simply push a button. It is the process to get you to the point of pushing a button that can be difficult. And even modern warfare consists of much more than just sitting back and pushing buttons. It is hard, nasty, and quite dangerous work for your average infantryman, just as it has always been.

My thinking in this area is rather in line with the quotation you provided from Tolkien:

Quote:
Labour-saving machinery only creates endless and worse labour. (Letters, 75)
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Old 05-12-2004, 12:22 AM   #4
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Aside from the development and maintenance of modern weaponry, I think another difficulty is the need for complex strategems in using such. Surely it is also necessary in using "ancient" weapons, but with technology, it has to be given a lot more thought.
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Old 05-12-2004, 08:18 AM   #5
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Thank you Son of Númenor for supplying those quotes from the Letters. They, and others like them, were the ones that I was immediately reminded of when I first saw this thread. There are also a number of references to his dislike of Terror from the Air, which Helen mentioned. Indeed, in letters written during WW2 to his son Christopher, who was stationed with the RAF in South Africa at the time, Tolkien expressed his sadness that Christopher should be flying military aircraft. He likened the situation to a Hobbit riding a Fell Beast, I believe. When I read this, I thought how distressing it must have been for Christopher to read of his father’s intense dislike of the very things that he was flying in the service of his country. But, since Christopher knew his father as closely as anyone, I suppose that he must have understood.

Although Tolkien expresses in his Letters many sentiments with which I can agree, his dislike of modern technology is one area where I find his views significantly at variance with my own. I can understand his hatred of modern warfare (particularly given his experiences in WW1, which I am sure that I could never even begin to appreciate fully) but, as Kuruharan intimated, it is people, not machines, that kill people. And, as one who greatly appreciates the beauty of my own country, I can understand his sense that the ugliness of modern factories and the like were blighting the land (although very little of rural England, including areas such as that on which the Shire is based, represents its natural state). And I can also (acutely) identify with his thoughts on technological advancements speeding up the pace of life to an unpleasant (and often dangerously stressful) degree.

But he seems to take no account of the benefits that advancements in technology can bring, particularly in terms of medical advancements, standards of living and information availability. This issue came up in a recent PM discussion with Numenorean, who wondered what Tolkien would have made of the information age and, in particular, the internet. I said that I thought that, as someone who valued information (or at least the communication of thoughts and ideas), he might have recognised the value of the internet. Then again, the internet can be put to good and bad use, just like the “infernal combustion engine” which he lambastes in his Letters.

One final thought. It seems odd to me that someone should be content with a certain level of technology, yet find any advancement beyond that unpleasant. I suppose it depends upon what one is used to. My mother never did get round to learning how to operate a video recorder!
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Old 05-12-2004, 08:53 AM   #6
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You're right Saucepan Man, Tolkien's quarrel with technological advancement was somewhat narrow-minded. Surely all of us can appreciate the wonderful advancements that have been made in medicine in the last half-century, which has contributed to higher standards of living across the world & longer average lifespans than could ever have been conceived of only a few hundred years ago.

While we all appreciate & take for granted the great availability of information thanks to the Internet, I don't know that Professor Tolkien would have looked happily upon the relative ease by which each of us can now access knowledge on almost any subject from anywhere in the international community. His claim that "humanity... [is] both nitwitted and malicious as a rule" (Letters, 64), seems to indicate a feeling of his that knowledge is a dangerous tool in the hands of the wrong people, or even, to an extent, in the hands of the general public. He would probably berate those who make essays on nuclear power & websites devoted to white supremacy so readily available to anyone who seeks them (or should happen upon them). I, for one, am a firm advocate of the advantages of the Internet as a resource for learning & sharing views & ideas, but would not blame Tolkien for criticizing the danger inherent in such a resource.

Like Saucepan, I cannot imagine the profound effect that World War I had on J.R.R. Tolkien, & can only believe that World War II was one of the most painful experiences of Tolkien's life, seeing all the same mistakes being made over again & yet another massive war engulfing the world in the lifetime of millions of those who remembered the Great War, the supposed War to End All Wars. The Second World War, perhaps, contributed almost as much as World War I to Tolkien's skepticism of technology & his cynicism & pessimism about the human race. Given his experiences, it is hard to blame him.
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Old 05-12-2004, 09:27 AM   #7
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There are so many different levels and types of technology, and things can become quite complicated when trying to express your views. Such as disliking one form of technology but supporting another.

For instance I truly find the medical aspect of our technology to be astounding, helping people with diseases and complications, trying to find cures for those incurable diseases. But then I get to thinking (and I know this is an awefully cruel thing to think or say) but if these people with these illnesses are allowed to live and possibly reproduce passing those traits on to their offspring; what then?

More and more people will be faced with it, that in my opinion is why the human race is weakening, because we are defying nature, we're trying to live and prolong life for those we should be trying to put to rest easily, some of the treatments they have cause much undesired pain. Of course its horribly easy for me to say that, but only because I myself am not afflicted with any condition, and have none in my family that suffer as well.

I have no doubt that my point of view would quickly change if some mischance arose, I don't want to die and I don't want any of my family to die, though death is eventually inevitable, but I'll not worry about that until the time comes. I'm not some sort of Doomsday person I just feel we're toying with things we shouldn't be playing with. (like cloning but that a whole other thing unrelated to this topic issue).

Now on the subject of war, my definition for easier in this case is that it is easier to use the threat of nuclear war and other such devices to get what you want. Everyone knows the desolation that one of those abominations can bring ever since the United States bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, of course that was in WW2.

But ultimately the situation varies little (well except for minor details). That also brings up another point, what with the continueing impersonality of war, where is the honour in that? Forgive me for being seriously old- fashioned but we never really face our enemy eye to eye anymore. To use the stereotypical cliche 'its just a flick of a switch and a push of a button', or at least the threat to do so by another nation against another nation.

Yes, I can fully understand there is a whole new way of dealing in and with war what with all of our fabulous mechanizations. We've lost the honour of being able to face down our enemies hand to hand, now we just shoot them or they shoot us and its done with; which leads to my final biased opinion...

It is easier to use a gun than a sword, even a child could use a gun (My memory fails me as to which countries have used gun bearing children in war), but to use a sword would take much more skill and discipline. Of course it isn't really about skill and discipline anymore its about who can kill who the fastest.

That to me is why Tolkien so hated war. Well thats my opinion, I'm sure not all of you will agree but that is fine, everyone is entitled to his or her view and I respect that, I just hope that you will respect my view as well; I'm sure we all agree that no matter the circumstances war is above all not a glorious thing
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Old 05-12-2004, 09:55 AM   #8
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Esgallhugwen, a child can also use a sword, as well (I am using a movie called The Last Samurai for example, as well as the training of children for battle in the Middle-ages).

First of all, there is hand to hand to fighting in modern warfare still. We still need troops made of men, etc and they still fight face to face. Modern warfare has made it easier to kill people, but also it's not as if we can just flick a switch. We have to seriously think about it before we drop an atomic bomb on a nation. Wiping out an entire nation will have its effects, and we have to think long and hard about before we do that.

But, according to the quotes that Son of Númenor put on his post, Tolkien laments the huge loss of human life in war that is made so much easier now. He does not lament the lack of honour in war because there can still be honour even in modern day warfare. Even in World War II there was honour and I'm sure that there is still honour in war or else the government would quit giving out their medals and purple hearts.

On a semi off topic obervation, I do not believe that Tolkien realized the favour that modern warfare gives us. If a nation knows that another nation has the power to wipe out an entire nation, it will think long and hard before it precipates a huge war.
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Old 05-12-2004, 10:19 AM   #9
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Strangely enough, modern technology and the advent of instantaneous global communication has bred a new spin on modern warfare, one in which propaganda and psychological objectives are as valuable or even more valuable than conventional tactical and strategic objectives. Operations are conducted not to achieve any particular tactical objective, but only for their P.R. value.

I daresay that, considering his dislike even of the telephone, Tolkien would have recoiled from computers and the internet.

Technology gets a pasting in "On Fairy-Stories" as well, with special scorn reserved for the sheer aesthetic ugliness of mass-production.

He also comments on the transience of technological objects. As science races ahead with new discoveries and new gadgets, today's cutting edge tech is, tomorrow, "pitiably obsolete and shabby".

He seems to have been much more interested in permanent, primary, fundamental things like trees, and the ocean, and lightning. "How real," he says with much irony, "how startlingly alive is a factory chimney compared with an elm-tree: poor obsolete thing, insubstantial dream of an escapist!"

In this I sympathize, though as Sauce notes we are all, to an extent, the products of our age. I'd hate to give up my XBOX.
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