Aragorn vs. Denethor....???

[Dininziliel]

Guinivere's post contained the key information for me. Given that Denethor had had years to perfect & enrich his distrust, jealousy, pride, and covetousness, he would have had a difficult time turning over his stewardship even without the added and very potent influence of the palantir. Denethor had fallen into a rigid, conservative and decadent approach toward ruling Gondor. This is described by Gandalf in "The Last Debate":

'Then you would have us retreat to Minas Tirith, or Dol Amroth, or to Dunharrow, and there sit like children on sand-castles when the tide is flowing?" said Imrahil. "That would be no new counsel," said Gandalf. "Have you not done this and little more in all the days of Denethor? But no! I said this would be prudent. I do not counsel prudence. . . ."

Denethor had staked all on this approach and would have lost the city, and all else, quite quickly had not Gandalf, Imrahil, etc., come to Gondor's aid.

There is another quote revealing Denethor's mind in this matter. From "The Pyre of Denethor":

"I would have things as they were in all the days of my life," answered Denethor, "and in the days of my longfathers before me: to be the Lord of this City in peace, and leave my chair to a son after me, who would be his own master and no wizard's pupil. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught : neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated."

So, add up all the above quotes, throw in the palantir, & then consider the effect of all this occurring slowly over a long time, and it seems pretty clear that Denethor would have been unable to come to terms with the fact that for all his wisdom and Numenorean sightedness, he had turned out to be the "wizard's" pupil (Sauron's) and failed as both ruler and father. Unless . . .

I'd like to think, and this could naturally follow given what we know of the characters & Tolkien, that Faramir would have been the only possible vehicle for Denethor to redeem himself. It is touchingly ironic, since Denethor had demeaned his devoted son for so long, and even sent Faramir on a suicide mission. The only thing that could have saved Denethor was love--Faramir's love, which would certainly have been freely given to his father. Would Denethor have chosen to accept it? I'd like to think so. Denethor would have come to the breaking point, surrendered to acceptance of Faramir's love, then faded away peacefully on his regular bed, and not a firey pyre.

[Boromir88]

Kalimac, Denethor was probably started going mad when Ecthelion died. Since, you had this "Thorongil" who was supposedly the King of Gondor, and Denethor was worried about himself being the heir of his father, thats when he started to look in the palantir. He slowly declined then when his wife Finduilas died, I do agree he rapidly declined when Boromir died. Denethor saw Boromir as Gondor's last hope when he died everything just went down hill, the true "breaking point" for me was when Faramir was wounded and he thought he was going to die, I think that was the point where it was just to much for Denethor to handle.

Gwaihir, yes PJ just love twisting around the characters. I agree Boromir would of never said "Gondor needs no king," through the whole journey Boromir wanted to have Aragorn come to Minas Tirith, and was content with the coming of the king to aid Gondor. Anything to help Gondor prevail was Boromir's concern, he was content with the sword coming back but he thought Gondor could only be saved if the ring was in his possession.

Denethor was a horrible father, but great man, and great commander. He was a good fighter and was wise in lore, much like his son Faramir. Thing wrong with Denethor was anyone who did not fight under his command he hated (perhaps the exclusion of Theoden, since Denethor put his hope into Rohan coming). You saw Beregond commit treason to save his loved captain Faramir, in the end Aragorn would of been restored king, I believe, no ifs ands or buts about it.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Hi guys! Glad to see heated discussions beyond the Grave!

Hmm, Aragorn versus Denethor, huh? I place my bets on Aragorn!

But honestly, the theme of Kingship is so very often repeated that it is surprising that no-one sued for democracy yet. Take a look at the original Hobbit. Bard the Archer is the rightful king of Dale. Did he "executed" the other guy? No, he loaded the old man with dragon loot, which the latter promptly embezzled! Denethor is hardly a joker like the old man of Laketown, but Bard seems somewhat in character with Aragorn (Are they related?)

On the serious note, Denethor had the military under his fist. After Pelennor Fields, Aragorn could be credited with being one of the Captains that saved the day, but it is going to be pretty hard to prove his kingship over Gondor. Note: to the point of his death, his followers are still blindly following his orders. It might take a struggle to root him out...

[gorthaur_cruel]

I believe that if Denethor survived, Aragorn would still have been made king. People liked Thorongil more than Denethor, and there would be a lot of people who remember who Thorongil was, if Aragorn made that claim. Also, I don't think people would feel much loyalty to a man who insisted that all was lost, when the battle turned out to be victorious. Once Aragorn showed the ring of Barahir, and Elrond brought the sceptre of Annuminas, as well as the whole "hands of a king = hands of a healer" business, people would realise that Aragorn is indeed the rightful king, whether Denethor wills it or no.

Also, Gandalf and Frodo would return as heroes, and they'd support Aragorn for king.

[rutslegolas]

I think that the people of Arnor would weigh more upon the judgement of Faramir BOUT THE REAL KING . And dont forget Denethor in his youth had been a great man resisting Mordor and the people thought he used to fight with the Dark Lord in his Tower.

But I too think that people would accept Elessar the King after the Tokens that he piossessed were shown to the people.

[Gorwingel]

Why don't we just look at it from the viewpoint of Aragorn defeating the Dark Lord. I think that hopefully the people of Gondor would have seen that Aragorn was most definitely a more effective leader just because he had ridded them of their greatest foe, and Denethor had not. So, yes, I believe if Denethor would have still been alive he would have stepped down just because of overwhealming public opinion (Now I know that Gondor was most definitely not a democratic society, but hopefully Faramir would have gotten on the side of Aragorn, and hopefully public opinion would have swayed on to the side of Aragorn). But then I also believe that he wouldn't have stepped down non-violently. He was very much a strongwilled character, and would have most likely ended up either being killed sent into exile in some way.

[Mahal]

I don't think Denethor would have stepped down, if he won(the Pelenor battle), his pride would have been even greater. No, I think he would rather commit suicide than to let Aragorn climb the throne.