Race parents - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Potatothan · 05-04-2004, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

I would suppose it has something to do with the fact that practically nobody from the Third Age has been around when the parents of the Elves have been in Middle-Earth. For example, none would call Galadriel the daughter of Finarfin because, after all, are they aware that he is her father?

Ohw right, so it WAS something to do with the age. Anyone knows who Thrandhuil is related too? I always figured he was with the elves that stayed in middle-earth after the summon of the valar. That case he would be quite old, or is he just a descendant of them?

~Potatothan

Lobelia · 05-04-2004, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potatothan

Anyone knows who Thrandhuil is related too? I always figured he was with the elves that stayed in middle-earth after the summon of the valar. That case he would be quite old, or is he just a descendant of them?

~Potatothan

Off the top of my head, I can't recall Thranduil's family tree (I am sure someone else on this thread will), but have a look at the chapter "Flies and Spiders" in THE HOBBIT for a description of the Elves of Mirkwood - "For most of them...were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West." Thranduil must be pretty old, because Legolas says, in THE TWO TOWERS, that Fangorn made him feel young for the first time in a long time and describes his companions as "you children". And Legolas is, of course, Thranduil's child, so must be younger than him.

Firefoot · 05-04-2004, 05:24 AM

It seems like the ___ son of ____ is used most often in greetings and introductions. I would say it is used as a way of identification. In Legolas's case for example, most people probably didn't know who he was, but they probably would know who Thranduil was, being that he had been king for the entire 3rd Age. (Before Thranduil it was his father Oropher, who was slain in the War of the Last Alliance.) Aragorn often used the "son of Arathorn" when introducing himself. To the hobbits in Bree "I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and if by life or death I can save you, I will." To Éomer: "Elendil! I am Aragorn son of Arathorn...". to name a few. Someone like Galadriel or Elrond wouldn't need this form of ID because they were obviously quite well-known.

Findegil · 05-04-2004, 05:33 AM

The history of the Mirkwood-Elves can be found in Unfinished Tales. I will provide a short summary:
Thranduil was the son of Oropher. Oropher was a Sindarin Elf of Doraith that refused to life together with the Noldor when the Elves of Doriath fled to the mouth of Sirion and later to Lindon. He wandered east and settled in the vale of Anduin in the woods around Amon Lac (later Dol Guldur). Since the Sindar had more knowledge the Nandor and Avari they found in the woods they established them self as leaders and Oropher founded a kingdom of the Wood-Elves in southern Mirkwood. In the course of the Second Age Galadriel for the first time lifed in Lórien and influenced the Wood-Elves of that realm. Oropher still didn't liked the Noldor and moved his kingdom to the Woods around the Mountians of Mirkwood to free himself and his people from Galadriels influence.
In the War of the Last Alliance Oropher led his people to the Battle at Dagorlad, but he did not acept the command of Gil-Galad. Thus he and 2/3 of his warrior were killed in an attack lunched to early. Thranduil who had taken part in the battle survived and after the war led the remants of the people bake to mirkwood. When in the third age Dol Guldur becam a thread he removed his realm further north. To the place we know from The Hobbit.
Since Thranduil's palace was in very many aspects similar to Menegroth we can assume that he was already born in Doriath and had seen the fortress of Thingol with his own eyes.

I hope that helps clearing the things a bit.
Respectfully
Findegil

Lalwendë · 05-04-2004, 02:06 PM

It always struck me that the Hobbits of The Shire and Men of Bree actually stand out as having surnames, instead of being generally referred to as 'son of ....'. I may be mistaken but it doesn't seem that any of the other societies in Middle Earth use surnames. The only odd cases I can think of are names such as 'Gandalf Stormcrow' - these are nicknames, but nicknames are one of the common roots of surnames.

Perhaps it ought to be on a new thread, but I often wonder if this makes The Shire the most 'advanced' of the various societies. Surnames generally come into use when trade and government have grown so much that it would be impossible to govern without being able to distinguish individuals.

Anyway, I generally think that the use of names is a cultural matter in middle Earth. The elves don't seem to use anything other than first names, which might indicate a smaller, more village-like society, wheareas men use 'son of...', which is more feudal.

symestreem · 05-04-2004, 02:14 PM

Well, the elves were more reclusive, and most of them knew each other, having had ample time to meet before. So they didn't really need surnames. It is interesting that the elves, who along with men placed the most emphasis on descendants and ancestry, did NOT use a patronymic (?) or, "son of", while men DID. I think the hobbits having surnames may have been a device of Tolkien's introduced when he was writing 'The Hobbit', to be familiar to children/give the story an English feel. But the elves could most definitely NOT feel English, and the men had to feel... pre-English (hence the patronymics). So you could say that the hobbits correspond to the latest time frame of our world, but the circumstances in Middle-earth are different, and this does not necessarily indicate advancement. Remember, the later the age, the greater the technology, and Tolkien seemed to dislike industrialization (yes,t hat's stretching it a bit). Also, it may be because there were so many hobbits, and they had similar first names, so calling a hobbit (first name) son/daughter of (first name) would have been confusing.

Potatothan · 05-04-2004, 03:33 PM

Look! That helped

I never knew the elves of Mirkwood rebelled. Just one more thing about the mirkwood elves.(sorry) Why didn't they have a city? Is it because they just have a castle? All the other societies have cities. Calas Galadhon, Hobbiton, Minas Tirith, Dale. Khazad-Dum (altough I don't really know if this is a city). Why was this?

~Potatothan

Lhunardawen · 05-04-2004, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by symestreem
Also, it may be because there were so many hobbits, and they had similar first names, so calling a hobbit (first name) son/daughter of (first name) would have been confusing

So was it for a few of the Elves. Think about Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell. Although there is a possibility that they are one and the same...

Thorongil · 05-05-2004, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potatothan

Look! That helped

I never knew the elves of Mirkwood rebelled. Just one more thing about the mirkwood elves.(sorry) Why didn't they have a city? Is it because they just have a castle? All the other societies have cities. Calas Galadhon, Hobbiton, Minas Tirith, Dale. Khazad-Dum (altough I don't really know if this is a city). Why was this?

Well, even if there were a city in Mirkwood, I would still live in the fortress. Would you live in an open city when lots of spiders and other evil were creeping around right outside? Almost all of Mirkwood was under the evil influence of Dol Guldur, exept for the small part Thranduil's people held. A fortress was probably the safest place to be in.

05-04-2004, 03:33 PM	#7
Potatothan Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Traveling from one warm bed to another Posts: 52	Look! That helped I never knew the elves of Mirkwood rebelled. Just one more thing about the mirkwood elves.(sorry) Why didn't they have a city? Is it because they just have a castle? All the other societies have cities. Calas Galadhon, Hobbiton, Minas Tirith, Dale. Khazad-Dum (altough I don't really know if this is a city). Why was this? ~Potatothan __________________ Are we humans or are we called humans?

05-04-2004, 05:24 AM	#3
Firefoot Illusionary Holbytla Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 7,547	It seems like the ___ son of ____ is used most often in greetings and introductions. I would say it is used as a way of identification. In Legolas's case for example, most people probably didn't know who he was, but they probably would know who Thranduil was, being that he had been king for the entire 3rd Age. (Before Thranduil it was his father Oropher, who was slain in the War of the Last Alliance.) Aragorn often used the "son of Arathorn" when introducing himself. To the hobbits in Bree "I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and if by life or death I can save you, I will." To Éomer: "Elendil! I am Aragorn son of Arathorn...". to name a few. Someone like Galadriel or Elrond wouldn't need this form of ID because they were obviously quite well-known.

05-04-2004, 05:33 AM	#4
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	The history of the Mirkwood-Elves can be found in Unfinished Tales. I will provide a short summary: Thranduil was the son of Oropher. Oropher was a Sindarin Elf of Doraith that refused to life together with the Noldor when the Elves of Doriath fled to the mouth of Sirion and later to Lindon. He wandered east and settled in the vale of Anduin in the woods around Amon Lac (later Dol Guldur). Since the Sindar had more knowledge the Nandor and Avari they found in the woods they established them self as leaders and Oropher founded a kingdom of the Wood-Elves in southern Mirkwood. In the course of the Second Age Galadriel for the first time lifed in Lórien and influenced the Wood-Elves of that realm. Oropher still didn't liked the Noldor and moved his kingdom to the Woods around the Mountians of Mirkwood to free himself and his people from Galadriels influence. In the War of the Last Alliance Oropher led his people to the Battle at Dagorlad, but he did not acept the command of Gil-Galad. Thus he and 2/3 of his warrior were killed in an attack lunched to early. Thranduil who had taken part in the battle survived and after the war led the remants of the people bake to mirkwood. When in the third age Dol Guldur becam a thread he removed his realm further north. To the place we know from The Hobbit. Since Thranduil's palace was in very many aspects similar to Menegroth we can assume that he was already born in Doriath and had seen the fortress of Thingol with his own eyes. I hope that helps clearing the things a bit. Respectfully Findegil

05-04-2004, 02:06 PM	#5
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	It always struck me that the Hobbits of The Shire and Men of Bree actually stand out as having surnames, instead of being generally referred to as 'son of ....'. I may be mistaken but it doesn't seem that any of the other societies in Middle Earth use surnames. The only odd cases I can think of are names such as 'Gandalf Stormcrow' - these are nicknames, but nicknames are one of the common roots of surnames. Perhaps it ought to be on a new thread, but I often wonder if this makes The Shire the most 'advanced' of the various societies. Surnames generally come into use when trade and government have grown so much that it would be impossible to govern without being able to distinguish individuals. Anyway, I generally think that the use of names is a cultural matter in middle Earth. The elves don't seem to use anything other than first names, which might indicate a smaller, more village-like society, wheareas men use 'son of...', which is more feudal.

05-04-2004, 02:14 PM	#6
symestreem Face in the Water Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 728	Well, the elves were more reclusive, and most of them knew each other, having had ample time to meet before. So they didn't really need surnames. It is interesting that the elves, who along with men placed the most emphasis on descendants and ancestry, did NOT use a patronymic (?) or, "son of", while men DID. I think the hobbits having surnames may have been a device of Tolkien's introduced when he was writing 'The Hobbit', to be familiar to children/give the story an English feel. But the elves could most definitely NOT feel English, and the men had to feel... pre-English (hence the patronymics). So you could say that the hobbits correspond to the latest time frame of our world, but the circumstances in Middle-earth are different, and this does not necessarily indicate advancement. Remember, the later the age, the greater the technology, and Tolkien seemed to dislike industrialization (yes,t hat's stretching it a bit). Also, it may be because there were so many hobbits, and they had similar first names, so calling a hobbit (first name) son/daughter of (first name) would have been confusing.