Friends of Nimrodel: Tapestry of Dreams - Discussion - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

littlemanpoet · 05-03-2004, 08:05 PM

Just a couple language notions. But tell me if I should just mine my own business.

I'm choosing to by NOT picky about descriptions.

Character words and thoughts are another matter.

Actually, these aren't even suggestions for change; just points to ponder, and if you feel like using them, great. If not, that's fine too. But I'll let you know if there's one or so that I consider "egregious" (latinate).

post #167:
Latinate: demanding / Anglo-Saxon: urging

post # 168:
Latinate: languish (great word by the way!) / Norman English: moulder / Anglo-Saxon / waste away

Actually, that's all for now. I'll shut up now.

LMP

mark12_30 · 05-03-2004, 08:44 PM

lmp,

Please don't shut up. No-one admires monks more than I do. Nevertheless, I'd hate to end up with a troop of italian gondorians tracking an eored of latin-monkish rohirrim talking to a gaggle of french elves.

That said: I did edit, and substituted urging for demanding-- but it wasn't urging on Aeron's part, it was clearly an ultimatum-- my sister comes or forget the whole deal. So what's Anglo-Saxon for blackmail?

Good night, all-- I had hoped to post tonight but early tomorrow will have to do. Don't wait for me if you feel like posting!!!

And no, Alak, it's not 7:30 my time. It's 10:30!

*waves and yawns*

mark12_30 · 05-04-2004, 07:09 AM

For Nuru, wherever she is (I hope all is well) :

Come by the hills to the land where life is a song
And sing while the birds fill the air with their joy all day long,
Where the trees sway in time and even the wind sings in tune,
And cares of tomorrow must wait till this day is done.

...Amroth should listen...

littlemanpoet · 05-04-2004, 08:15 PM

Tolkien exercised one very critical element of language that most of his followers tend to overlook...... contraction. Many words in Sindarin and Quenya, I recollect, are built from compounds of smaller words. The new word almost never contains every last letter and syllable of the two words used. If I had any smarts at all, or time, I'd do some research to back this up, but well......

Anyway, Nethgwador is a case in point. Some aspect of the word would disappear, that which the tongue passes most lightly over in the language. You can see this all over the English language.

Kneel. ... knife..... thought..... through...... notice the silent letters? They weren't always silent. the latter two were spoken with a guttural in the throat, like a dog growling, I suppose. Hard to do. No wonder we don't anymore.

Back to Nethgwador. Say it fast. Notice what starts to disappear when you say it fast enough? The Elves, I'm thinking, intuitively know what letters are going to drop out of a compound word, and would name accordingly, especially taking into account the daily wear and tear.

So I'll make a suggestion or two on this account, base on my own attempts to say this name really fast: Nekwador. Nethador. Nethwador. The latter may be the best one. You decide.

alaklondewen · 05-05-2004, 06:56 PM

I edited and added an extra scene onto post #161.

littlemanpoet · 05-05-2004, 07:30 PM

Well, I get to point out my own mistake. Tolkien never, ever used the word, "tobacco", anywhere that I can think of in any of his writings. He talked about it aplenty, but always referred to it as "pipeweed".

Which makes my main point way better than I could. Two simple English words are combined in a whimsical, picturesque manner, such that the cured vegetable matter, imported from Spain, Virginia, or wherever, that Englishmen stuff in their pipe bowls, becomes a completely Hobbitish thing - from the South farthing no less, called pipe weed.

Does that do us any good regarding such words as "demand"? Heck, I'm still wracking my brain on that one. Anyway, I enjoy the challenge of trying to find ways of expressing things the way I imagine Tolkien would have. Okay, I'll be quiet with the linguistics stuff and try to get Ædegard and Raefindan in gear again.

Imladris · 05-06-2004, 04:08 PM

Lmp, even though I enjoyed your post immensely (go Raefindan!) you said that the merchant was an "overfed man" when in fact he is rather quite skinny...

Cheers!
Imladris

littlemanpoet · 05-10-2004, 01:30 PM

Uh oh, Orual. Looks like we posted right on top of each other. I only read the first couple lines, but it looks like we may be getting in the way of each other. How do you want to handle it?

Orual · 05-10-2004, 01:32 PM

We cross-posted, but it wasn't really to cross-purposes...so I just edited and let what I had written flow more naturally from what you had set up. Check it out and see if there's anything I need to change, but I think that there ought to be no problem.

mark12_30 · 05-10-2004, 01:35 PM

...I think it's good... and I think Raefindan very nicely gave Mellonin-- er, Fingon-- the argument that he needed!

Onward! Uh, I guess that means me next! Wheee!

littlemanpoet · 05-10-2004, 01:44 PM

Orual, that was a work of genius! Way to go!

alaklondewen · 05-10-2004, 02:03 PM

lmp, there is a small problem with your Lorien post. Caranduin and Celegtâl know nothing of Amroth and Mellon, but they will take you to Erebemlin anyway. I probably should have been clearer beforehand, but would you mind editing that dialogue? Thanks.

Edit: Also, Celegtâl is standing before you, while Caranduin is in the tree.

mark12_30 · 05-10-2004, 02:27 PM

Okay! Fingon hath spoken-- and Mellonin is a sqeaky-voiced bundle of frayed nerves!!

Imladris · 05-10-2004, 02:35 PM

Good old Aeron showing some sort of nobility at the end.

Nice touch...

littlemanpoet · 05-04-2004, 07:39 PM

... it just doensn't have the rich vocabulary we're all used to with modern English.

Blackmail? huh, that's not bad itself, actually, although I think "mail" is a French Norman word. (1066 and all that).

Black guard? again, norman french.

Turn-coat, maybe? No, that's traitoring.

Take basic English and compound, maybe. Um, it's a demand.... um..... order? he bade him... um..... to bid ......

Anglo Saxon "spanan" = urge, persuade, entice, but that doesn't help us at all. Arg! If only my Bright's glossary went both ways! oh heck, Norman English is good enough. Tolkien used lots of it. - - guard. tobacco was borrowing form Spanish, I think. So do your best.

insist? oh, I give up.

05-03-2004, 08:44 PM	#2
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	"However Comma" lmp, Please don't shut up. No-one admires monks more than I do. Nevertheless, I'd hate to end up with a troop of italian gondorians tracking an eored of latin-monkish rohirrim talking to a gaggle of french elves. That said: I did edit, and substituted urging for demanding-- but it wasn't urging on Aeron's part, it was clearly an ultimatum-- my sister comes or forget the whole deal. So what's Anglo-Saxon for blackmail? Good night, all-- I had hoped to post tonight but early tomorrow will have to do. Don't wait for me if you feel like posting!!! And no, Alak, it's not 7:30 my time. It's 10:30! waves and yawns __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

05-04-2004, 07:09 AM	#3
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	For Nuru, wherever she is (I hope all is well) : Come by the hills to the land where life is a song And sing while the birds fill the air with their joy all day long, Where the trees sway in time and even the wind sings in tune, And cares of tomorrow must wait till this day is done. ...Amroth should listen... __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

05-04-2004, 08:15 PM	#4
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	yet another little thang...... Tolkien exercised one very critical element of language that most of his followers tend to overlook...... contraction. Many words in Sindarin and Quenya, I recollect, are built from compounds of smaller words. The new word almost never contains every last letter and syllable of the two words used. If I had any smarts at all, or time, I'd do some research to back this up, but well...... Anyway, Nethgwador is a case in point. Some aspect of the word would disappear, that which the tongue passes most lightly over in the language. You can see this all over the English language. Kneel. ... knife..... thought..... through...... notice the silent letters? They weren't always silent. the latter two were spoken with a guttural in the throat, like a dog growling, I suppose. Hard to do. No wonder we don't anymore. Back to Nethgwador. Say it fast. Notice what starts to disappear when you say it fast enough? The Elves, I'm thinking, intuitively know what letters are going to drop out of a compound word, and would name accordingly, especially taking into account the daily wear and tear. So I'll make a suggestion or two on this account, base on my own attempts to say this name really fast: Nekwador. Nethador. Nethwador. The latter may be the best one. You decide. Last edited by littlemanpoet; 05-05-2004 at 07:23 PM. Reason: to remove offensive verbage

05-05-2004, 06:56 PM	#5
alaklondewen Song of Seregon Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Following the road less traveled Posts: 1,193	I edited and added an extra scene onto post #161. __________________ At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending. Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away!

05-05-2004, 07:30 PM	#6
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	eating crow.... Well, I get to point out my own mistake. Tolkien never, ever used the word, "tobacco", anywhere that I can think of in any of his writings. He talked about it aplenty, but always referred to it as "pipeweed". Which makes my main point way better than I could. Two simple English words are combined in a whimsical, picturesque manner, such that the cured vegetable matter, imported from Spain, Virginia, or wherever, that Englishmen stuff in their pipe bowls, becomes a completely Hobbitish thing - from the South farthing no less, called pipe weed. Does that do us any good regarding such words as "demand"? Heck, I'm still wracking my brain on that one. Anyway, I enjoy the challenge of trying to find ways of expressing things the way I imagine Tolkien would have. Okay, I'll be quiet with the linguistics stuff and try to get Ædegard and Raefindan in gear again.

05-03-2004, 08:05 PM	#1
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Language points Just a couple language notions. But tell me if I should just mine my own business. I'm choosing to by NOT picky about descriptions. Character words and thoughts are another matter. Actually, these aren't even suggestions for change; just points to ponder, and if you feel like using them, great. If not, that's fine too. But I'll let you know if there's one or so that I consider "egregious" (latinate). post #167: Latinate: demanding / Anglo-Saxon: urging post # 168: Latinate: languish (great word by the way!) / Norman English: moulder / Anglo-Saxon / waste away Actually, that's all for now. I'll shut up now. LMP

05-06-2004, 04:08 PM	#7
Imladris Tears of the Phoenix Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Putting dimes in the jukebox baby. Posts: 1,453	Lmp, even though I enjoyed your post immensely (go Raefindan!) you said that the merchant was an "overfed man" when in fact he is rather quite skinny... Cheers! Imladris __________________ I'm sorry it wasn't a unicorn. It would have been nice to have unicorns. I'm your huckleberry.

05-10-2004, 01:30 PM	#8
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	uh oh, Orual Uh oh, Orual. Looks like we posted right on top of each other. I only read the first couple lines, but it looks like we may be getting in the way of each other. How do you want to handle it?

05-10-2004, 01:32 PM	#9
Orual Speaker of the Dead Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Superbia Posts: 868	We cross-posted, but it wasn't really to cross-purposes...so I just edited and let what I had written flow more naturally from what you had set up. Check it out and see if there's anything I need to change, but I think that there ought to be no problem. __________________ "Oh, my god! I care so little, I almost passed out!" --Dr. Cox, "Scrubs"

05-10-2004, 01:35 PM	#10
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	weaving the tapestry :p ...I think it's good... and I think Raefindan very nicely gave Mellonin-- er, Fingon-- the argument that he needed! Onward! Uh, I guess that means me next! Wheee! __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

05-10-2004, 01:44 PM	#11
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	genius! Orual, that was a work of genius! Way to go!

05-10-2004, 02:03 PM	#12
alaklondewen Song of Seregon Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Following the road less traveled Posts: 1,193	lmp, there is a small problem with your Lorien post. Caranduin and Celegtâl know nothing of Amroth and Mellon, but they will take you to Erebemlin anyway. I probably should have been clearer beforehand, but would you mind editing that dialogue? Thanks. Edit: Also, Celegtâl is standing before you, while Caranduin is in the tree. __________________ At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending. Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away!

05-10-2004, 02:27 PM	#13
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	it's rough, lengthy and -- well, you decide Okay! Fingon hath spoken-- and Mellonin is a sqeaky-voiced bundle of frayed nerves!! __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

05-10-2004, 02:35 PM	#14
Imladris Tears of the Phoenix Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Putting dimes in the jukebox baby. Posts: 1,453	Good old Aeron showing some sort of nobility at the end. Nice touch... __________________ I'm sorry it wasn't a unicorn. It would have been nice to have unicorns. I'm your huckleberry.

05-04-2004, 07:39 PM	#15
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	That's the trouble with an old language.... ... it just doensn't have the rich vocabulary we're all used to with modern English. Blackmail? huh, that's not bad itself, actually, although I think "mail" is a French Norman word. (1066 and all that). Black guard? again, norman french. Turn-coat, maybe? No, that's traitoring. Take basic English and compound, maybe. Um, it's a demand.... um..... order? he bade him... um..... to bid ...... Anglo Saxon "spanan" = urge, persuade, entice, but that doesn't help us at all. Arg! If only my Bright's glossary went both ways! oh heck, Norman English is good enough. Tolkien used lots of it. - - guard. tobacco was borrowing form Spanish, I think. So do your best. insist? oh, I give up.