Ecthelion vs 100 trolls??? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

NightKnight · 05-02-2004, 03:45 AM

Yes, it's in BoLT 2. The Fall of Gondolin is a really great story.

Gothmog · 05-04-2004, 08:06 AM

Thanks for all your help. Hasn't read BoLT yet, there's not enough time

But soon... I keep on going through The Hobbit, LoTR, Sil and Tales of the ME (is it called like that in english?? I've got the swedish version) instead

Quote:

For instance, Balrogs were practically invincible prior to this, but Ecthelion and all the other brave Elves soon showed that they could be killed...en masse.

Excuse me for my neverending questioning (and now I go off-topic, IN MY OWN TOPIC!!!

) Was there more than 2 Balrogs killed at the assault of Gondolin? Did anyone else then Ecthelion and Glorfindel manage to slay one?

Once again, thank you!

Olorin_TLA · 05-05-2004, 08:19 AM

Yep, quite a few were killed. BUT: when Tolkien wrote this, Balrogs were different from the one in LotR, because they weren't as powerful, as they weren't Maia. Later Tolkein said that there would be only 3 or 7, at most, Balrogs, becuase if you had armies of them, as there were in BoLT, and they were as powerful as the Balrog of Moria, then they would taken over the world.

Lord of Angmar · 05-05-2004, 08:25 AM

Ecthelion didn't kill 100 trolls, though he did kill more than his share of Balrogs and orcs. You may be thinking of Hurin, who supposedly killed 70 trolls at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (although whether or not all 70 of the creatures he slew were trolls is highly debatable).

Gothmog · 05-07-2004, 10:04 AM

No, I wasn't thinking of Hurin. Actually this question popped up in my head when I was reading an other thread, the one about the strength of a troll (Just how hard is it to kill a Troll?). Somebody wrote something about Ecthelion killing 100 trolls, but they weren't sure there either...

Olorin, are you sure they wasn't as powerful as the "Moria-Balrog"? And maybe there wasn't armies but if you read Sil. you get the impression that they were more than 3...maybe even more than 7.

Regarding their strength: in the beginning of sil. (Valaquenta) Tolkien writes (translated from swedish, please ignore my errors)

Quote:

And terrible amongst these deamons were valaraukar, the scourge of fire which in Middle-Earth were called Balrogs, deamons of fear

(isn't deamons of might???)
It's also said that they joined Melkor before Arda was created. I don't think the Moria-Balrog was different or more powerful than the others, but the warriors were more powerful at the time of tha battle of Gondolin.

Olorin_TLA · 05-07-2004, 10:19 AM

It makes sense to assume Durin's Bane was as powerful as other Balrogs; when Tolkien was revising the Silmarillion after writing LotR, he crossed out a mention ottwo of their being hosts of Balrogs, and wrote that there shouldn't be assumed to be more than 3 or 7. Also, in his writings about Glorfindel, one of the last things he wrote, he crossed out that he killed a Balrog and replaced it with "Demon", and contiuned to refer to it as a Demon and not a Balrog, anohter indication that the Balrogs had become much more powerful and rare in the post-LotR Silmarillion.

Gothmog · 05-08-2004, 06:40 AM

So it's really a question of what version you want to believe in: the original or the post-LotR... I stick with the version where Glorfindel killed a BALROG and no lesser demon

Otherwise, it must have been a powerful demon. It is said in Sil. that many songs were wrote about Glorfindel's fight with the-whatever-it-was and to make a fight that important, you need two great warriors

05-02-2004, 03:45 AM	#1
NightKnight Lost among the Stars Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Hiding in Childhood (Sweden) Posts: 2,690	Yes, it's in BoLT 2. The Fall of Gondolin is a really great story. __________________ There are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.

05-05-2004, 08:19 AM	#3
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Yep, quite a few were killed. BUT: when Tolkien wrote this, Balrogs were different from the one in LotR, because they weren't as powerful, as they weren't Maia. Later Tolkein said that there would be only 3 or 7, at most, Balrogs, becuase if you had armies of them, as there were in BoLT, and they were as powerful as the Balrog of Moria, then they would taken over the world. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

05-05-2004, 08:25 AM	#4
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Ecthelion didn't kill 100 trolls, though he did kill more than his share of Balrogs and orcs. You may be thinking of Hurin, who supposedly killed 70 trolls at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears (although whether or not all 70 of the creatures he slew were trolls is highly debatable). __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

05-07-2004, 10:19 AM	#6
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	It makes sense to assume Durin's Bane was as powerful as other Balrogs; when Tolkien was revising the Silmarillion after writing LotR, he crossed out a mention ottwo of their being hosts of Balrogs, and wrote that there shouldn't be assumed to be more than 3 or 7. Also, in his writings about Glorfindel, one of the last things he wrote, he crossed out that he killed a Balrog and replaced it with "Demon", and contiuned to refer to it as a Demon and not a Balrog, anohter indication that the Balrogs had become much more powerful and rare in the post-LotR Silmarillion. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

05-08-2004, 06:40 AM	#7
Gothmog Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Where I lay my head is home Posts: 421	So it's really a question of what version you want to believe in: the original or the post-LotR... I stick with the version where Glorfindel killed a BALROG and no lesser demon Otherwise, it must have been a powerful demon. It is said in Sil. that many songs were wrote about Glorfindel's fight with the-whatever-it-was and to make a fight that important, you need two great warriors __________________ Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...