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#1 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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...another "well said"...
davem wrote:
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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#2 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#3 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Not for me. Half of the enchantment I get from LOTR is that Tolkien *believed* in his characters, knew them, loved them. And this is seen more clearly still in his letters. He talks about Frodo and Gandalf and Faramir as if they lived down the street. He knows what they would and wouldn't do, what they would and wouldn't say. And he demands the same faith from his correspondents, and rails if they fail to give it (see the Movie-review-letter.)
The letters show me how real M-E and its characters were-- are!-- to Tolkien. They make me realize he wasn't lying to me, or laughing up his sleeve at me; that he was, is, and will remain every bit as enchanted as I am. And I like it that way. But they go deeper still than that. They show me what kind of man he is; they show me where his sub-creation comes from. I cherish that as much, if not more, than the sub-creation itself. Do not laugh... seeing how his sub-creation was birthed despite (or because of) his eccentricities and foibles, I am emboldened to dream that despite having eccentricities and foibles of my own, I might likewise birth something worthwhile.
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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#4 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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True, Saucepan Man, but the exegesis of the Letters, though they themselves dissect (or exegite) the text of Tolkien, do not completely lay bare everything, and this is where davem and Mark12_30 have their bit. As far as I could tell, they wish not to delve too deeply into the meaning behind the exegesis. As always, I could be wrong about their beliefs or opinions on the matter, but that is what I think they mean from reading their posts. And, what I said above applies not only to them, but to me. As I do not want to read the exegesis of a manual too heavily, I do not crossreference said manual either, as it would have the same effect. If I can quote myself again, for the person on the one side, with a text, it is theirs to do with as they will, as they obtained it in some manner (legal of course). And for the second person, they can do with it as they will, as they have obtained it also. But for either the one person or the second person to try to impress their beliefs on how to exegite the text of the manual, is wrong. Plain and simply wrong. That's all.
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"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief." |
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#5 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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(This line of thought runs contrary to the reasoning adopted in an earlier post which I made on this topic, but I am pursuing it nevertheless as I think that it is perhaps an issue worth exploring.)
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#6 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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Do we really want to go with the author's set point of view? It may not fit what I had in mind, true. So if that happens to be true, should we not think o'er the fact that if we read the Letters too well, we will be impressed with the ideas and views of ME that the author had? There may be some who wish not to have such ideas about that wonderful place that Tolkien made. But even if they don't read the Letters, or have exactly the viewpoint about ME that Tolkien had, does this inherently discredit the author's worth or merit for creating the book and story? No, of course not. "Tolkien" is now a word in mouth for most. Even if we have slightly different viewpoints, the author does not lose anything, as the Book and World he created are just that, his creations. Nothing we could ever do, would discredit him from his fashionings.
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"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief." |
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#7 | ||
Stormdancer of Doom
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The example that springs to mind is the reader who asked why Gandalf messed up at the gates of Moria, and offered several explainations. Tolkien's response: He said that he forgot. Why didn't you believe him? Why, indeed. Do I trust the narrator? If not, then why am I reading the book? Quote:
I suupose when one man prophesies, a response might be, don't get to know that man, because knowing his weakness might make you doubt the prophesy. But another response might be, "Prophet! Apprentice me, and teach me to see!" I choose the latter.
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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#8 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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So, the Letters could be viewed as more of a relay from the Perilous Realm to us, through Tolkien. Hmmm, interesting. Could you not also say, though, that there are those (I'm not one of them) who believe that they themselves can view the Perilous Realm? That they themselves could be Prophets in their own right? Just something to ponder....
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"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief." |
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#9 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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An afterthought:
I have come to love the histories-- Trotter, Tinfang Warble, and all-- precisely because they show me *Tolkien's road to Faerie*-- the road that he himself trod over the course of his lifetime. It's the man's own enchantment-- the enchantment that he himself is UNDER-- that I value the most, because that enchantment was what fueled his sub-creation and enchanted so many others. In reading his letters, I see clearly why he is enchanted, and I understand that the enchantment is open to me as well. And Bilbo, are there other prophets-- in this case, mythmakers? Of course. Quote:
To put it another way, a man is what he eats, body, soul, and spirit.
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 04-29-2004 at 08:49 AM. |
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#10 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 6,003
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Well, I am going to stick my foot in the swiftly running discussion here and hope I won't be swept away!
I too would say with SpM to Helen that I understand this love of the writer for his characters. However, as I was rereading Carpenter yesterday, I found this passage (going to use it to reply to bilbo's thread later this morning). Quote:
So, we are left with the fact that Tolkien was like any reader, looking around for threads of ideas and then picking up strands to be developed. (Of course, he wasn't just like any reader in that his creative sense of fairey was so great and grand and fine.) It was in retrospective that Tolkien amassed all his storey elements into the grand vision of the Legendarium. For that reason alone I think it valuable to put aside or hold in abeyance if you will his rather insistent claims in later years about what the text means. I am far more interested in what might have brought those Black Riders riding, riding, riding in the first place. My bet is on an entire panoply of possibilities. Here's to holding tight to my life perserver! ![]()
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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