Here There Be Dragons - Discussion/Planning

[Nerindel]

Child

Have I missed something somewhere? how did Rama and the eagle become involved in Pio's question regarding Aiwendil and Narika?

If it is that you wish also to enquire as to which language the eagle will use or understand I will answer thus:


She will understand both the common tongue and the dialect of the clans, but it has been a long time since she has found the need to speak either, so initially and more instinctively she will speak the language of the bird that she is, the resounding ouch would have been a slip that she might not even give thought to, or even realised she had uttered. But depending on which tongue Rama uses to speak to her curious intruder, the eagle soon releasing that she does not understand her high pitched squels and Kee, Kee sounds will try to recall the words to answer her accordingly.

does that help?

Another question that comes to mind regarding the dialects of the clans, is weather or not they would vary slightly from clan to clan?

[piosenniel]

My opinion is that the dialects would vary from clan to clan. And that between the clans might be used either common speech or a traders' dialect.

Families whose main source of livelihood is from the clans on their trade routes would naturally have picked up some of the clan dialects specific to each clan. That's the assumption I've been operating under.

~*~ Pio

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I was under the impression that the dialects should vary greatly from clan to clan, or else Surinen and Narayad would not have spoken so freely infront of Rog. Does that work for everyone? Or have I presented a problem? Maybe they would have a similar root, but have become disimilar as the years have passed, so that there are some shared words but sentence patterns and many words or pronuncations sound strange or unrecognizable. If the clans have chosen to remain somewhat isolated I can see this happening.

Also, for all involved in the Eagle clan's activities, Latah is not a traitor to the clan. Just wanted to make that announcement publicly. She's a good girl, she is, and we have plans for her.

EDIT: I just saw your post Pio, and agree with it. Those who have some need to communicate with the clans might learn some dialects, and also some clansman might also know common speach, but not all because they would not generally need to know it.

[Nerindel]

The reason I asked the initial question was that I was pondering the dialect of the Maenwaith in the city, I assumed that they would have some common dialect, like a trading dialect as Pio mentioned above, one which they all would have used during the yearly gathering of the clans?

I was under the impression, perhaps wrongly that the rebel clans only Isolated themselves after one such gathering where Wyrma may have put through her request that the Maenwaith settle into towns and cities giving up their nomadic ways.

As to your concerns regarding Surinen and Narayad would they have known he was Maenwaith from the off set and not Haradwaith who's dialect I would imagine would be entirely different altogether?

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

Yes, a trading dialect sounds good. I was just assuming that they would use Westron for that since it is widely used by all.

I would think that the clans would have isolated for a long time, at least since Sauron became active in Mordor again, but that the distrust of one another was a newer development. Before Wyrma, possibly there might have been disputes over water rights and grazing grounds but not the worries they have now.

Surinen and Narayad did not know Rôg was maenwaith until they saw him as the vulture, (since you can’t necessarily tell a maenwaith by sight), and Surinen had spoken to him in Westron.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Well, this is what happens when one has a 'guilty' conscience and is musing on other things! I had been struggling with the post between Ráma and the Eagle for several days. I am very late filling it in.

When I 'saw' Pio's initial query, my brain transposed the terms "Aiwendil and Narika' to 'Ráma and the Eagle'. I know this is hard to believe but that's what happened! I stared long and hard at the computer screen, and I swear that's what I saw....

Let me clarify my thoughts here....

Because the maenwaith whom Ráma encounters was in Eagle form, the young woman would, I think, natural ly revert to her clan dialect. The opposite holds for Aiwendil....he would use the common tongue, whether that's Westron or some trading dialect, since he is dealing with "strangers". I'm not sure he would even know the clan dialect, although he may pick it up quickly. Whether we use Westron or a tradiing dialect is fine with me.


Pio, does this help answer your question?

I was wondering if Westron was spoken as far south as Harad, but this is what appears in Ardalambion and in the appendix of Lotr. The italics are mine.

The language actually spoken by the characters in LotR, and indeed the language the Red Book was originally written in, was called Adûni, which name Tolkien rendered into English as Westron. Tolkien explains: "The language represented in this history by English was the Westron or 'Common Speech' of the West-lands of Middle-earth in the Third Age. In the course of that age it had become the native language of nearly all the speaking-peoples (save the Elves) who dwelt within the bounds of the old kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor; that is along all the coasts from Umbar northward to the Bay of Forochel, and inland as far as the Misty Mountains and the Ephel Dúath. It had also spread north up the Anduin, occupying the lands west of the River and east of the mountains as far as the Gladden Fields. At the time of the War of the Ring at the end of the age these were still its bounds as a native tongue." (Appendix F)

It seems to suggest that it was mainly the language of the coastal peoples in the south; perhaps those inland spoke another common tongue...or the trading dialect, of which you spoke. Or do others read this differently?

Ah, and I am still working on that other post.

[Hilde Bracegirdle]

I agree it would be debatable if the more southerly or easterly folk would know Westron. I guess that depends on how far those Numenoreans traveled. But it would make it a great deal easier to communicate to the Gondorian contingent if at least some did.

(I can't believe I wrote "all" in that last comment. I did not mean to imply all of Middle Earth!)

[piosenniel]

I would think that since many of the trading based clans moved about quite a bit (and I'm sure probably went as far north as the main bazaar in Umbar) that common trading dialect and Westron might have intermingled. And that the members of a particular clan who did the most trading or represented the others of the clan in their trading might know enough Westron to get by.

My dad was raised in the Phillipines. There were numerous, discrete dialects spoken on the various islands. Pidgin, a trading dialect cobbled from the various main languages including those of the traders who were English and Spanish speakers, was used as the lingua franca. Forms of Pidgin were also used along the trading routes among the islands chains in Micronesia, Melanesia, and Polynesia, so that everybody could get their business done.

[piosenniel]

Child’s post 200:

Turning towards the men, she dispensed with any word of greeting, and urged them to make haste, "We must leave immediately before the whole city is up. There was someone making inquiries at the Cat's Paw, and I have a feeling that Falasmir would not take kindly to seeing his two Gondorians fleeing from the city. I will take you west of Umbar, where we will find a friendly caravan that can guide you east and north towards the Harad Road. That will lead toward lands familiar to you. My own duty lies with my family. I must travel south and inland to the spot where my clan awaits."

I then moved the group forward with post 201 – the group of three leave with Tinar following them, and Nizar following Tinar.

The group is heading toward (and may be near) the watering hole that Esty spoke of in post 203.


If this is not alright – then please advise and I will remove and rewrite my posts.

[Ealasaide]

I read that section of Child's post as the start of a conversation, rather than the start of movement, which is why I am confused. I was under the impression that there would be at least some discussion between Rama & the Gondorians before we moved out.

I'll leave that part up to Child & Mith, though, as it doesn't make that much difference to my character. At this stage, he is just going where his captain tells him to go. I suppose snakes that need slaying can be lurking anywhere...

[Child of the 7th Age]

Ealasaide,

Please check your pms and let me know if this will work.

~Child

[Ealasaide]

Child~
That will work! Thanks!