Another thing...Why did the elves not fight?

[doug*platypus]

Before this discussion turns instead to "Eldar: Wise Teachers or Just Jerks?"... whoops, too late! .... I'd like to address the first post made by Etharius.

I was pretty dissappointed at the elves in story of LotR. They didn't fight at Helms Deep or at Minas Tirith and neither at that other place. I think they are either wussies or stuck-up. Why were they not prepared to sacrifice themselves for the destruction of Sauron and the ring?

While you're obviously entitled to your own opinion of Elves as "wussies", this judgment appears to have been made on them in great haste. The Barrow-Downs is a great source of extra information that you may not know about Tolkien's books. I've often found that knowledge brought to the discussion by other forum users has completely shattered my previous assumptions and misconceptions about Middle Earth.

Elianna has described very well the part that Elves did play in the wars of the Third Age. The Appendices are the best source of information for the deeds of the Elves and Dwarves during the War of the Ring, but some things can also be gleaned from the text. Thranduil and his Elves fought with evil creatures in Mirkwood. Galadriel, Haldir and the Elves of Lórien fought off three separate assaults from Dol Guldûr. I am not completely clear on the role of Elrond and Glorfindel at Imladris, but I think there was some threat from the Ettenmoors. At any rate, their part of the world was too wild and dangerous to abandon for the war in the south.

I can understand how the movies may have affected peoples' perception of the War of the Ring greatly. Peter Jackson chose to limit the conflict to the war in Gondor, thus shooting himself (and the story) in the foot. As Maédhros pointed out, the Elves of Lórien could not have come to Helm's Deep; they were already fighting Sauron on another front. That is part of the reason that many fans of the book were so upset by this significant change in the story. The movies would have us believe that the War took place in Rohan and Gondor only. This was NOT the case. The Dwarves of Erebor were NOT solely "hiding in their mountains seeking riches". Their King, Dáin Ironfoot, was killed defending against the forces of Sauron in the War of the Ring. And Elrond, in my humble opinion, still cared greatly for the fate of Middle Earth. There is nothing in the text to suggest he did not.

Most important of all, as already pointed out, the destruction of the One Ring meant that Lórien and Rivendell would both eventually cease to exist unchanged as centres of Elvendom in Middle Earth. Galadriel and Elrond both resisted the temptation to take the One. They let it go to be destroyed; both were acting selflessly (and/or wisely) for the greater good of Middle Earth. And don't forget that Elrond allowed his daughter to marry Aragorn and lose the opportunity to go to the Undrying Lands with him.

There are many easily found and convincing reasons why Elves were not "wussies" OR "stuck-up" OR "not prepared to sacrifice themselves". This is why I provided Etharius with that link to the Novices and Newcomers Forum. I believe that the question would have been more suitably posted there. But perhaps I was wrong.

[Etharius]

Yes maybe it should have. Thanks for the info on the Dwarves.

[The Saucepan Man]

... just a quick point in defence of Jackson.

I can understand how the movies may have affected peoples' perception of the War of the Ring greatly. Peter Jackson chose to limit the conflict to the war in Gondor, thus shooting himself (and the story) in the foot.

I think it would have been very difficult for Jackson to portray the role of the Elves and Dwarves (and other Men such as the Bardings and the Beornings) in the War of the Ring without either disrupting the flow of the films or lengthening them considerably (which was really not an option). After all, the story which he was filming primarily focussed on the Wartime events which took place in Rohan and Gondor. So it was, I think, a fair call. And having the Elves turn up at Helm's Deep was, in part, intended to avoid the perception (amongst filmgoers) that the Elves were content selfishly to stand by while the race of Man was annihilated.

And now back to the book ...

[Essex]

Actually, now looking at the replies to my earlier post (much better thought out than mine) , I also need to be doing some slack cutting myself (i.e. to the Elves).

I've just got fed up of the endless praising and views of many people who see Elves as 'perfect' beings (mainly on other forums that now seem to have gone West) and have been biased because of this.

I will re-read the Silmarillion again and see if I can change my view........

PS Etahrius

sorry Essex, i assumed you were female.

Only at weekends!

PPS You call me a girl AND I was sticking up for you!!!!

[ArathorofBarahir]

I think it was because they were preparing for their journey over the sea to the Undying Lands.

[doug*platypus]

Thanks for the info on the Dwarves.

No problem, Etharius, and a belated Welcome to the Downs!

I hope you were not offended by my suggestion that the thread should be in Novices and Newcomers, and I'm glad that you were able to get many, many answers to your first post!

Saucepan Man, that was an excellent explanation of (or should I say excuse for?) PJs decision to have the Elves fight at Helm's Deep. I maintain that a movie would be ideally suited to show quick CG scenes of various battles across Middle Earth (a la the celebration scenes at the end of the Return of the Jedi extended edition). But perhaps that discussion would be better on this thread:

Elves at Helm's Deep?

[Legolas]

Right; further points about the movie should be done in that forum.

Really, a majority of the elves left in Middle-earth at the time of the War of the Ring were fighting, as stated before, with Lorien against the forces across Rhovanion. Other than that, there were very few elves left in Middle-earth. The time had come to complete the shift of dominance from elves to men, as Tolkien says, was planned/destined from the beginning ("The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race, from the beginning destined to replace the Elves"). Truthfully, they should have already been gone (as Tolkien describes in the second quote provided below).

In his Letters (among other places), Tolkien makes some notes about the elves not being perfect or meant to reflect perfection - they too have their weaknesses. They certainly have admirable qualities, such as their love in preserving nature, but there are flaws obvious in looking at the history of Middle-earth. Some are very obvious in the happenings of the First Age, but some are observable in the Third Age though they go often overlooked. These notes can be sort of long, but it's hard to edit them while preserving the entire thought.

The fall of the Elves comes about through the possessive attitude of Feanor and his seven sons to these gems. [...] They pervert the greater pan of their kindred, who rebel against the gods, and depart from paradise, and go to make hopeless war upon the Enemy. The first fruit of their fall is war in Paradise, the slaying of Elves by Elves, and this and their evil oath dogs all their later heroism, generating treacheries and undoing all victories.

In the first we see a sort of second fall or at least 'error' of the Elves. There was nothing wrong essentially in their lingering against counsel, still sadly with the mortal lands of their old heroic deeds. But they wanted to have their cake without eating it. They wanted the peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West', and yet to remain on the ordinary earth where their prestige as the highest people, above wild Elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor. They thus became obsessed with 'fading', the mode in which the changes of time (the law of the world under the sun) was perceived by them. They became sad, and their art (shall we say) antiquarian, and their efforts all really a kind of embalming – even though they also retained the old motive of their kind, the adornment of earth, and the healing of its hurts.

Some reviewers have called the whole thing simple-minded, just a plain fight between Good and Evil, with all the good just good, and the bad just bad. Pardonable, perhaps (though at least Boromir has been overlooked) in people in a hurry, and with only a fragment to read, and, of course, without the earlier written but unpublished Elvish histories. But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right. Not so much because they had flirted with Sauron; as because with or without his assistance they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it: to live in the mortal historical Middle-earth because they had become fond of it (and perhaps because they there had the advantages of a superior caste), and so tried to stop its change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasaunce, even largely a desert, where they could be 'artists' – and they were overburdened with sadness and nostalgic regret.

...each of which [Men/Elves] has its own natural trend, and weakness. The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men. That is: they have a devoted love of the physical world, and a desire to observe and understand it for its own sake and as 'other' – sc. as a reality derived from God in the same degree as themselves – not as a material for use or as a power-platform. [...] This [immortality] becomes a great burden as the ages lengthen, especially in a world in which there is malice and destruction (I have left out the mythological form which Malice or the Fall of the Angels takes in this fable). Mere change as such is not represented as 'evil': it is the unfolding of the story and to refuse this is of course against the design of God. But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the past, and to become unwilling to face change: as if a man were to hate a very long book still going on, and wished to settle down in a favourite chapter. Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over things as they are (which is quite distinct from an), to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair.