Another thing...Why did the elves not fight?

[Saraphim]

Welcome to the Downs, Etharius! But if you ever want to have a social life of any kind, leave now! Look at my sig; you'll never get out!

Anyway. *looks around suspiciusly*

You should definitly read the Silmarilion, and the innumerable other books raleted to Middle-Earth. You'll find that the Elves do quite a bulk of the fighting. Especially Fingolfin.

In my opinion, the elves were all either dead, gone over to Valinor, or simply tired of fighting. Many of them still did, the Mirkwood elves is an example of this, because thier lands were threatened.

[doug*platypus]

Before this discussion turns instead to "Eldar: Wise Teachers or Just Jerks?"... whoops, too late! .... I'd like to address the first post made by Etharius.

I was pretty dissappointed at the elves in story of LotR. They didn't fight at Helms Deep or at Minas Tirith and neither at that other place. I think they are either wussies or stuck-up. Why were they not prepared to sacrifice themselves for the destruction of Sauron and the ring?

While you're obviously entitled to your own opinion of Elves as "wussies", this judgment appears to have been made on them in great haste. The Barrow-Downs is a great source of extra information that you may not know about Tolkien's books. I've often found that knowledge brought to the discussion by other forum users has completely shattered my previous assumptions and misconceptions about Middle Earth.

Elianna has described very well the part that Elves did play in the wars of the Third Age. The Appendices are the best source of information for the deeds of the Elves and Dwarves during the War of the Ring, but some things can also be gleaned from the text. Thranduil and his Elves fought with evil creatures in Mirkwood. Galadriel, Haldir and the Elves of Lórien fought off three separate assaults from Dol Guldûr. I am not completely clear on the role of Elrond and Glorfindel at Imladris, but I think there was some threat from the Ettenmoors. At any rate, their part of the world was too wild and dangerous to abandon for the war in the south.

I can understand how the movies may have affected peoples' perception of the War of the Ring greatly. Peter Jackson chose to limit the conflict to the war in Gondor, thus shooting himself (and the story) in the foot. As Maédhros pointed out, the Elves of Lórien could not have come to Helm's Deep; they were already fighting Sauron on another front. That is part of the reason that many fans of the book were so upset by this significant change in the story. The movies would have us believe that the War took place in Rohan and Gondor only. This was NOT the case. The Dwarves of Erebor were NOT solely "hiding in their mountains seeking riches". Their King, Dáin Ironfoot, was killed defending against the forces of Sauron in the War of the Ring. And Elrond, in my humble opinion, still cared greatly for the fate of Middle Earth. There is nothing in the text to suggest he did not.

Most important of all, as already pointed out, the destruction of the One Ring meant that Lórien and Rivendell would both eventually cease to exist unchanged as centres of Elvendom in Middle Earth. Galadriel and Elrond both resisted the temptation to take the One. They let it go to be destroyed; both were acting selflessly (and/or wisely) for the greater good of Middle Earth. And don't forget that Elrond allowed his daughter to marry Aragorn and lose the opportunity to go to the Undrying Lands with him.

There are many easily found and convincing reasons why Elves were not "wussies" OR "stuck-up" OR "not prepared to sacrifice themselves". This is why I provided Etharius with that link to the Novices and Newcomers Forum. I believe that the question would have been more suitably posted there. But perhaps I was wrong.

[Etharius]

Yes maybe it should have. Thanks for the info on the Dwarves.

[The Saucepan Man]

... just a quick point in defence of Jackson.

I can understand how the movies may have affected peoples' perception of the War of the Ring greatly. Peter Jackson chose to limit the conflict to the war in Gondor, thus shooting himself (and the story) in the foot.

I think it would have been very difficult for Jackson to portray the role of the Elves and Dwarves (and other Men such as the Bardings and the Beornings) in the War of the Ring without either disrupting the flow of the films or lengthening them considerably (which was really not an option). After all, the story which he was filming primarily focussed on the Wartime events which took place in Rohan and Gondor. So it was, I think, a fair call. And having the Elves turn up at Helm's Deep was, in part, intended to avoid the perception (amongst filmgoers) that the Elves were content selfishly to stand by while the race of Man was annihilated.

And now back to the book ...

[Essex]

Actually, now looking at the replies to my earlier post (much better thought out than mine) , I also need to be doing some slack cutting myself (i.e. to the Elves).

I've just got fed up of the endless praising and views of many people who see Elves as 'perfect' beings (mainly on other forums that now seem to have gone West) and have been biased because of this.

I will re-read the Silmarillion again and see if I can change my view........

PS Etahrius

sorry Essex, i assumed you were female.

Only at weekends!

PPS You call me a girl AND I was sticking up for you!!!!

[ArathorofBarahir]

I think it was because they were preparing for their journey over the sea to the Undying Lands.

[doug*platypus]

Thanks for the info on the Dwarves.

No problem, Etharius, and a belated Welcome to the Downs!

I hope you were not offended by my suggestion that the thread should be in Novices and Newcomers, and I'm glad that you were able to get many, many answers to your first post!

Saucepan Man, that was an excellent explanation of (or should I say excuse for?) PJs decision to have the Elves fight at Helm's Deep. I maintain that a movie would be ideally suited to show quick CG scenes of various battles across Middle Earth (a la the celebration scenes at the end of the Return of the Jedi extended edition). But perhaps that discussion would be better on this thread:

Elves at Helm's Deep?