Friends of Nimrodel: Tapestry of Dreams - Discussion

[mark12_30]

Okay, I just realized something potentially *very* comfusing is going on.

On the one hand, I'm insisting that Nuru use a non-anachronistic, linguistically consistent name for her "gypsies"-- I think I'll call them "our wayfarers" because Amroth is about to start a conversation with a stray one-- but one post later, Raefindan's dog is being called "George". What's going on?

It all goes back to Raefindan's original character development.

Raefindan is a time-traveller-- who doesn't *know* he's a time traveller. littlemanpoet is using the "Lost Road" method of time travel (via dreams) to displace a 20th century man (Roy) to Middle-Earth. The variation in what lmp is doing, is that this 20th century man is remembering bits of 20th century language, and it is slipping out of him. This is the readers' only real clue that Raefindan doesn't belong in the Fourth Age.

lmp is using some *very* subtle signals to get this across. For one thing, notice lmp's use of contractions. (i think they're called contractions? Grammar was 20+ years ago...) -- words with an apostrophe made from two other words. Don't for Do Not, Won't for Will Not, It'll for It Will... etc. Anyway-- you'll notice that when lmp writes a post, the only character to use apostrophe-words is Raefindan. That's because it's a modern speech pattern. All the other characters use non-apostropheed words.

Any other kind of anachronism is designed to make Raefindan stand out like sore thumb; to show the reader that He Doesn't Belong. He's a stranger and an alein in this place.

So the dog is very anachronistically named "George", or Jorge because he can't remember how to spell it.

Another anachronism: Raefindan's strategy of slowly introducing the dog to Gwillion. I'm guessing (correct me, lmp) that Raefindan is attempting to de-sensitize Gwillion to the dog because he understands some amount of modern psychology-- although he doesn't know why or where it came from. Again, this will make him stand out. Mellonin will be bemused by it all, Aeron may be a bit surprised that it worked-- but pleased-- and Ravion will wonder where this redheaded stranger came from, anyway.

There is an order and a logic to the anachronisms, and it's part of the story being woven about time travel and dreams. Raefindan has traveled to Middle-Earth from the 20th century; *then* he travels back via dreams a thousand years and experiences the life of Imrazor. This is the thread for connecting Amroth and Mellondu, in the end; Raefindan will have lived out both timeframes and will understand both stories, better than any of the other characters (except Erebemlin, but he was only in the northern part of the story.)

And in the very VERY end, it'll be interesting to see what happens to Raefindan, and where he finally ends up.

Does it make sense? Please ask questions if you have them.

[littlemanpoet]

What a great post, Helen! That was downright fun to read.

Please, please, please, can we stop calling them gypsies and start calling them wayfarers? 'Cause if Raefindan ever runs across them in this rpg, guess what he'll call 'em?

Nur, I'm a little fuzzy on what's expected of Ædegard right now. He'll "introduce us to all of them"??? To all the wayfarers? If that's what Liornung expects, he doesn't understand Ædegard yet.....

[Nurumaiel]

littlemanpoet and Helen, I'm in total agreement about ceasing with the 'gypsy'... as long as you'll permit me to call them 'gypsies/wayfarers' on the discussion thread? In truth gypsies isn't a very canon name considering how it originated, I'll admit most humbly. I don't regret calling them gypsies on the game thread (*wicked look*, but I'm sick and wicked right now), though I am going to edit and name them wayfarers as we've actually come up with the name. But I sparked an interesting discussion, eh? Please note I'm also in a very conceited mood. Comes from writing about conceited characters and acting them out, I suppose. Though it seems needless to say I'm not talking about Liornung.

Nur, I'm a little fuzzy on what's expected of Ædegard right now. He'll "introduce us to all of them"???

Did I really have Liornung say all of them? *blushes* Ugh, apologies. Let's just leave it in there and put it to Liornung's absentmindedness. I have begun to notice he's a bit absentminded at times. It's rather interesting how you learn things about your characters that you never knew before whilst you were writing, isn't it?

Ahem!

Well, what Liornung meant to say (*more blushes*) is that while he is fetching the water he would like Ædegard to give all their names to the one lassie. "This is Bellyn, that was Liornung, etc."

Interesting what I've heard about Raefindan. Maybe we could have the wayfarers/gypsies (I put wayfarers first, is that better? ) stick around until the Gondor company shows up just so Liornung can hear what he'd call them.... depending, that is, when the Gondor company shows up. I think eventually the Rohan company will outride the wayfarers. Raefindan sounds like an awfully interesting character. *mutters something about the need to pay more attention to the Gondor group*

Now I'll go edit Liornung's posts and change 'gypsies' to 'wayfarers' and then curl up and watch a movie and take Helen's excellent advice and go to sleep despite all inclinations to sit up late writing and tin whistling. It sounds like our confusion is getting cleared up, which is lovely, though the discussions were grand. If I ever have more time I'll wander over to the Books section for a little while.

By the way, Helen, I'm looking forward to Amroth's discussion with the stray gypsy... er, wayfarer.... if it hasn't occurred already? I'll go check the game thread.

[Nurumaiel]

Er... I know I said I'd edit and then go to bed, and while I did the former I thought I'd make another post in reply to littlemanpoet's. Liornung has had some serious words with Miss Argeleafa and has suggested something that might greatly upset Ædegard... then again it might not. I haven't the faintest idea so I left what happens next to you, lmp. Liornung is expecting Ædegard to fly into a terrible rage; if he doesn't Liornung will be awfully shocked so if that's how Ædegard's personality would compel him to be have fun with Liornung's pleasant surprise!

If Ædegard does fly into a rage, whether explosive or silent, as Liornung expects him to do, we can have fun with that, too.

Either way Liornung probably won't change his mind. He'll just change Ædegard's. And again either way, have fun with either Ædegard's anger or Liornung's shock at the lack of it. I frankly don't know how I expect him to react!

All right, then, I've given you something to work with, I've actually decided to bring a new character into the game (if I change my mind tomorrow I've given myself the father's decision to fall back upon), and having done a lovely night's work I'll bid you all a good night and a good morrow. Or, in better words, 'good night and joy be with you all.'

[mark12_30]

Nuru, I found myself putting words in poor, homesick Argeleafa's mouth... words from this song.

mp3 here


This (of course) reminds me of my own 'homesick anthem' (for a place I've NEVER been! ... Yet still, the blood is strong, the heart is highland...

[Nurumaiel]

And while we're speaking about Argeleafa, Helen, what is your opinion of her? Are you in favor of her joining our Rohan company or would you rather she just went home with her father?

Both are darling songs. My own personal 'homesick' song is a modified version of Carrickfergus, changed to be Carrick-on-Suir. But it is a bit different than the version on the site you've given me (guitar chords! Lovely!). Verse 2 there would actually be Verse 3 and the new Verse 2 would run....

My childhood days bring back sad reflections
of happy times spent so long ago.
My boyhood friends and my own relations
have all passed on now like melting snow.
I'll spend my days in endless roaming;
soft is the grass, my bed is free.
Ah to be back now in Carrickfergus
on that long road down to sea.

Suir... Darling little river... and all the lovely people that I knew... I'm making myself homesick, I'm afraid, and I can't let myself do that. I had a bad enough spell in November and December and I'm determined to have a lot of fun here. I dreamt I was back home last night, as a matter of fact.

So you're homesick for Scotland? I have never found myself in truth homesick for Scotland though I have gazed from time to time wistfully towards Cawdor Castle. Alas that it should fall upon my family that we were descended from the Campbells of Cawdor (alas Cawdor is now for the tourists and not for its rightful owners... I'm in a story-mood today, and that idea is sweet to think on... the rightful owners. Can the tourists all be minions of the enemies of Bonnie Prince Charlie? We can watch the Battle of Culloden from Cawdor ), though I do hope we're a better lot. Hold! I mustn't talk about my family history here, though it is a favorite subject of mine. Unless you consider it getting to know me better?

Aylwen? What about you? Are you in favor of Argeleafa joining the company or not? littlemanpoet? I'm afraid to make up my mind for myself. I might not be thinking quite straight in my illness... then again I might be thinking straighter than before and doing something wonderful....? Maybe? In my personal opinion Argeleafa is a sweet girl, but I don't know if she should actually be part of the company.

[mark12_30]

Nuru, I'd better not vote, as I have just saddled myself with ANOTHER Mellon!! We're just such a Friendly group. Although, I suspect (and hope) that Ædegard will rename the grimy young Mellon in a big hurry.

Maybe he'll even call him something nice.

I learned "The Water is Wide" as another lament entirely. Guess I'd better bone up on Carrickfergus!

So you're homesick for Scotland?

Aye, always have been. It's in the blood. Mountains and hills call, so does the rain and the fog. So does the cold grey sea. Spring air calls me to the reel, or to a pipe.

[littlemanpoet]

Just a couple language notions. But tell me if I should just mine my own business.

I'm choosing to by NOT picky about descriptions.

Character words and thoughts are another matter.

Actually, these aren't even suggestions for change; just points to ponder, and if you feel like using them, great. If not, that's fine too. But I'll let you know if there's one or so that I consider "egregious" (latinate).

post #167:
Latinate: demanding / Anglo-Saxon: urging

post # 168:
Latinate: languish (great word by the way!) / Norman English: moulder / Anglo-Saxon / waste away

Actually, that's all for now. I'll shut up now.

LMP

[mark12_30]

lmp,

Please don't shut up. No-one admires monks more than I do. Nevertheless, I'd hate to end up with a troop of italian gondorians tracking an eored of latin-monkish rohirrim talking to a gaggle of french elves.

That said: I did edit, and substituted urging for demanding-- but it wasn't urging on Aeron's part, it was clearly an ultimatum-- my sister comes or forget the whole deal. So what's Anglo-Saxon for blackmail?

Good night, all-- I had hoped to post tonight but early tomorrow will have to do. Don't wait for me if you feel like posting!!!

And no, Alak, it's not 7:30 my time. It's 10:30!

*waves and yawns*

[mark12_30]

For Nuru, wherever she is (I hope all is well) :

Come by the hills to the land where life is a song
And sing while the birds fill the air with their joy all day long,
Where the trees sway in time and even the wind sings in tune,
And cares of tomorrow must wait till this day is done.


...Amroth should listen...

[littlemanpoet]

Tolkien exercised one very critical element of language that most of his followers tend to overlook...... contraction. Many words in Sindarin and Quenya, I recollect, are built from compounds of smaller words. The new word almost never contains every last letter and syllable of the two words used. If I had any smarts at all, or time, I'd do some research to back this up, but well......

Anyway, Nethgwador is a case in point. Some aspect of the word would disappear, that which the tongue passes most lightly over in the language. You can see this all over the English language.

Kneel. ... knife..... thought..... through...... notice the silent letters? They weren't always silent. the latter two were spoken with a guttural in the throat, like a dog growling, I suppose. Hard to do. No wonder we don't anymore.

Back to Nethgwador. Say it fast. Notice what starts to disappear when you say it fast enough? The Elves, I'm thinking, intuitively know what letters are going to drop out of a compound word, and would name accordingly, especially taking into account the daily wear and tear.

So I'll make a suggestion or two on this account, base on my own attempts to say this name really fast: Nekwador. Nethador. Nethwador. The latter may be the best one. You decide.

[alaklondewen]

I edited and added an extra scene onto post #161.

[littlemanpoet]

Uh oh, Orual. Looks like we posted right on top of each other. I only read the first couple lines, but it looks like we may be getting in the way of each other. How do you want to handle it?

[Orual]

We cross-posted, but it wasn't really to cross-purposes...so I just edited and let what I had written flow more naturally from what you had set up. Check it out and see if there's anything I need to change, but I think that there ought to be no problem.

[littlemanpoet]

Orual, that was a work of genius! Way to go!

[alaklondewen]

lmp, there is a small problem with your Lorien post. Caranduin and Celegtâl know nothing of Amroth and Mellon, but they will take you to Erebemlin anyway. I probably should have been clearer beforehand, but would you mind editing that dialogue? Thanks.

Edit: Also, Celegtâl is standing before you, while Caranduin is in the tree.

[littlemanpoet]

... it just doensn't have the rich vocabulary we're all used to with modern English.

Blackmail? huh, that's not bad itself, actually, although I think "mail" is a French Norman word. (1066 and all that).

Black guard? again, norman french.

Turn-coat, maybe? No, that's traitoring.

Take basic English and compound, maybe. Um, it's a demand.... um..... order? he bade him... um..... to bid ......

Anglo Saxon "spanan" = urge, persuade, entice, but that doesn't help us at all. Arg! If only my Bright's glossary went both ways! oh heck, Norman English is good enough. Tolkien used lots of it. - - guard. tobacco was borrowing form Spanish, I think. So do your best.

insist? oh, I give up.