Unnumbered Tears - what if?

[HerenIstarion]

this thread grew reminiscent of Evil Things thread, heh.

Well, since most of what I can do will be repeating my own comments from over there, and in that I will fall short of Maédhros since I lack access to VT resources, I will add just a bit only:

Where meant re:

1. The whole history was meant to happen as it did, for Eru is omniscient and was certainly in the know what was going to happen when He said Ea. (things might have been different, but they could not have been better - as quoted from Leaf by Niggle
2. Freedom of choice is not eliminated by omniscience of Eru and the maxim of "it all was meant to be in this way"

And why should not we lend our ears to Tolkien, even if it seems to some that he contradicted himself in his later writings, after all?

[symestreem]

So we've pretty much established that the loss of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears was possibly the lesser of evils, and that the treachery of the Men was caused by the curse of the Noldor. Doesn't this imply that the curse actually brought good to the elves? (Relatively speaking of course; it also brought all of the Narn i Hin Hurin.) If they'd left Middle-earth without being cursed, would it have turned out worse for them?

[HerenIstarion]

and that the treachery of the Men was caused by the curse of the Noldor

Quite a difficult issue, this. I'd say, treachery of Men was the consequence of the choice the Men who betrayed elves did, but, for the Noldor, treason may have been the result of their blindness and haughtiness, not imposed, but predicted by the curse of Mandos.

You see, I always figured Mandos as someone not cursing in a sense as giving cause to following effect, but predicting what effects will follow if such and such course of action is taken

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I always figured Mandos as someone not cursing in a sense as giving cause to following effect, but predicting what effects will follow if such and such course of action is taken.

Exactly what I was thinking, too. He only speaks what will be.

This quote of Maédhros perked me up:

...the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it.

Perhaps Eru, knowing of the Ainur's reaction to Melkor's themes, had used his Elder children to redress this lack of faith. Morgoth's initial strength slowly dissipated due to his hatred and his desire to dominate the Eldar; hence when the host of Valinor assaulted Middle-earth, Morgoth was no longer able of doing damage, catastrophic or not.

Of course it would have been better if they had done this earlier...

And what of the Valar's "immaturity" and "dismay"?

It is told that after the flight of Melkor the Valar sat long unmoved upon their thrones in the Ring of Doom, but they were not idle, as Fëanor declared in the folly of his heart.

(The Silmarillion 11 - emphasis mine)

So much for dismay...

...and [the Valar's] thought passed beyond Eä and forth to the End...

(The Silmarillion 11)

You could tell me many more interpretations of "the End," but I believe it was the end of the vision of Ainulindalë,

And some have said that the vision [i.e., of Ainulindalë] ceased ere the fulfilment of the Dominion of Men and the fading of the Firstborn...

(The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë)

Nobody would want to fade. The Valar knew that eventually, the Younger shall supplant the Elder Children of Ilúvatar. Hence, they tried to hold back the Eldar from marching to their own sorrow - all that they would accomplish there they could not own forever.

Of course, they could have utilised force to this end. But they didn't. Though unwilling, they let the Noldor go whither they will.

Now the Kinslaying. Why throw a last surprise at the departing ones?

[Mandos(?): ]Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood...

The Silmarillion 9 - emphasis mine)

It was merely a punishment for the Kinslaying.