Friends of Nimrodel: Tapestry of Dreams - Discussion - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mark12_30 · 04-06-2004, 01:25 PM

Love these latest posts. Ravion's motley band is going to be a lot of fun!

littlemanpoet · 04-06-2004, 02:08 PM

Funny, this same topic came up at FWW (for those of you who want to know what that is, PM me). Here's what I wrote there:

I have an atlas of the journey from Hobbiton to Mordor. On 9/24 Frodo, Sam, and Pippin traveled 24 miles, stopping for supper and walking with Gildor and the Elves. They made 14 miles through the Midgewater marshes in one day (Oct. 3). On Oct. 18 Glorfindel pushed them through the night, on the East Road, and they made 30 miles on foot before they were allowed a 5 hour rest. Then they put in another 20 miles, on road again, the next day. Okay, that's something for on foot.

Hmmmm.... horses.....Wouldn't you know the maps are less helpful? I'm looking at Rohan. Gandalf's and Pippin's ride took 3 days and covered 300 miles. The march of the Rohirrim by horse from Edoras to Minas Tirith had them going about 60 miles a day. Hope that helps.

mark12_30 · 04-07-2004, 08:41 PM

Profoundly quiet today... Are most of us busy Wednesday? (I have band practice.)

I've brought a suspicious dog towards Ravion's group, guessing that Gwillion will react fearfully. Imladris, is this right or does she love dogs fearlessly?

The dog seems to me just a foreshadow of things to come; he doesn't need to be a big deal. Or-- if somebody feels like making him a big deal, have fun.

It's quiet in Rohan... Anybody there?

mark12_30 · 04-08-2004, 12:55 PM

Thursday, April 08, 2004
Hi all,

I've been looking hard at maps.

First of all, the head start that Amroth, Ædegard, Liornung and Bellyn got on Ravion turns out to be very good news. According to Ravion,

"I was in Rohan not a week gone by... ...and he is no longer in Edoras, as I said. As I also said, he is headed north. No one knew where he was bound."

So let's say the Rohan team had a week's head start. Maybe a little more.

I make it 300 miles from Edoras to the stream of Nimrodel at the Lorien edge. Average Cavalry speed is 33 miles per day, but Mellon-Amroth is pushing hard, and although he can't match Shadowfax's speed (100 miles a day) he's faster than 33 mi/day. Let's call it 45 miles / day to Lorien, since he's guessing he'll find Nimrodel there and the horses can rest. (He'll be wrong.) So, he gets to the edge of Lorien in a week. In other words, our timescales are a bit skewed; the Ædegard group is a week ahead of Ravion's group. We can either leave it that way for a little bit, or do some hasty writing and "catch up" timewise.

Timewise: As Ravion is leaving Minas Tirith, Erebemlin is meeting the Rohan group.

So let's say Erebemlin meets them where the Nimrodel-stream meets the edge of Lorien. He gives Mellon-Amroth the news that "She departed for the Havens long ago." So instead of searching along the banks of the Nimrodel-- the banks of which, Erebemlin assures him are quite deserted-- They immediately skirt the south of the forest and follow the Anduin river; the horses are growing weary.

So as Ædegard's group is heading south from Lorien along the Anduin on weary horses. Let's say they slow down to under 30 miles per day. Ravion's walkers are heading north-northwest, skirting the banks of the Anduin. Let's say they struggle along at twenty miles a day.

Somewhere between Rauros, Sarn Gebir, and the East Emnet, I'm guessing they will either hear word of Ædegard's group, or, they will actually find their trail. So at that point, they turn and follow the trail.

Do they each have horses by that time? What do you all think? Would some herdsman of Rohan take pity on them and offer them horses? (It's been nice working with Echo and the old Bay Mare, so... I confess I like the idea.)

I'm going to rough all this out on a map, and put it up on my website. It'll be a large map showing from the Bay of Belfalas to Lorien, with the trails I just described roughed out on it.

The Map

Comments....?

Grace and peace, --mark12_30

mark12_30 · 04-08-2004, 01:22 PM

I've also been thinking whether we want to compress time. I lean away from this in general, but in a game where this much distance is covered I felt I should think it over. I came up with a few ideas.

The obvious one is the old "And then after a whole month had gone by, our heroes found themselves at such and such a place." I grant that sometimes this approach is very neccessary, especially for games with a tight time-limit. I suppose it'll do in a pinch... However, as a writer, I've never cared for it.

But another option would be, when we reach a section of the journey where we want to really make tracks, each writer could describe one full day of travel, as briefly or as detailed as you like. I confess I like this option a great deal.

For an extreme moment, let's imagine the game from here on out as as Amroth's entire 2000-mile journey. Let's say he *just * started out. On horseback (good old Echo!) and guessing 25 miles/ day, that averages out to 80 days, or a little under three months real-time.

Amroth is combing river banks and searching hard, whereas Ravion's group is just trying to find Mellon-Amroth. So even if they are on foot, they can take certain short-cuts. And they may not be on foot for very long depending on the generosity of Rohan's East Emnet.

Gondor games have no set time limit. If we want to, we can cover the entire 2000-mile journey, both groups, in hour-by-hour detail, and take as long as we want to do it. That's up to us as a team. We can stretch this out for nine months if we want to. (Yes, once I was in a game from February to November. And I was the short-timer rookie in that game. Others were in it for much longer.)

I say all this mostly because the idea of a game that went on forever was stressing me out! But if we shoot for a day per day (so to speak) we're still looking at about three months from now. If we want more detail, fine. But we've got other options than the "disappearing month syndrome."

Thoughts and comments?

Imladris · 04-08-2004, 02:13 PM

Hmm...travel is such a bother. I'm not really sure if there is a good way to do it.

Quote:

For an extreme moment, let's imagine the game from here on out as as Amroth's entire 2000-mile journey. Let's say he *just * started out. On horseback (good old Echo!) and guessing 25 miles/ day, that averages out to 80 days, or a little under three months real-time.

Does that mean a day of travel corresponds with a day of real time? If so (and I could be misunderstanding you), wouldn't that be a little tedious?

Wouldn't it be easier if we kept the the time hazy and not go into detail about it? Or would that not be up to Gondorian quality of games? I could be wrong here (it's been awhile since I've read LotR), but wasn't Tolkien himself kind of hazy about the travel time and how long it took them to get place to place?

That's my inexpert opinion at least.

mark12_30 · 04-08-2004, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imladris

Does that mean a day of travel corresponds with a day of real time? If so (and I could be misunderstanding you), wouldn't that be a little tedious?

Certainly, if we made it a law and beat each other up about it, it would be awful. (Bleah!!) However, we could just use it as a heplful rule of thumb to guess how long the game will take (For instance, "Gee, we seem to be taking about three writing days to write one game-day, this could end up taking nine months!")

Quote:

Wouldn't it be easier if we kept the the time hazy and not go into detail about it? Or would that not be up to Gondorian quality of games?

If the time gets TOO hazy, then That actually makes things harder in a complex game. We've always had a calendar-keeper (in our long game it was Pio) who kept us all sane and on-track.

Quote:

I could be wrong here (it's been awhile since I've read LotR), but wasn't Tolkien himself kind of hazy about the travel time and how long it took them to get place to place?

If you check out the appendices (The Tlae Of Years) he was *incredibly * specific. He kept track of things like the phases of the moon, and where Aragorn was in Rohan while Sam and Frodo were in Ithilien. He made sure that all the various characters in all the different places were matched up and in sync. So he was actually quite "fanatical" about the times. He had to be; he had to have the Morannon battle at the same time as the destruction of the Ring. He timed it down to hours, and in the end, minutes.

It'll be easier for us, though, because we're going to meet up before the end...

(edit) The other reason to be careful about travel time is simple credibility. You avoid making mistakes like, "The wondrously athletic elf-maiden swam upriver all night long and finally reached the source of the river by dawn..." But oh by the way, THAT river is over 150 miles long from spring to ocean. So-- swimming upriver, she would get there before Shadowfax travelling on land? Hard to imagine and harder to believe.

04-06-2004, 01:25 PM	#1
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Love these latest posts. Ravion's motley band is going to be a lot of fun! __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

04-06-2004, 02:08 PM	#2
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	horse travel time Funny, this same topic came up at FWW (for those of you who want to know what that is, PM me). Here's what I wrote there: I have an atlas of the journey from Hobbiton to Mordor. On 9/24 Frodo, Sam, and Pippin traveled 24 miles, stopping for supper and walking with Gildor and the Elves. They made 14 miles through the Midgewater marshes in one day (Oct. 3). On Oct. 18 Glorfindel pushed them through the night, on the East Road, and they made 30 miles on foot before they were allowed a 5 hour rest. Then they put in another 20 miles, on road again, the next day. Okay, that's something for on foot. Hmmmm.... horses.....Wouldn't you know the maps are less helpful? I'm looking at Rohan. Gandalf's and Pippin's ride took 3 days and covered 300 miles. The march of the Rohirrim by horse from Edoras to Minas Tirith had them going about 60 miles a day. Hope that helps.

04-07-2004, 08:41 PM	#3
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Profoundly quiet today... Are most of us busy Wednesday? (I have band practice.) I've brought a suspicious dog towards Ravion's group, guessing that Gwillion will react fearfully. Imladris, is this right or does she love dogs fearlessly? The dog seems to me just a foreshadow of things to come; he doesn't need to be a big deal. Or-- if somebody feels like making him a big deal, have fun. It's quiet in Rohan... Anybody there? Last edited by mark12_30; 04-08-2004 at 12:19 PM.

04-08-2004, 12:55 PM	#4
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	maps and plans Thursday, April 08, 2004 Hi all, I've been looking hard at maps. First of all, the head start that Amroth, Ædegard, Liornung and Bellyn got on Ravion turns out to be very good news. According to Ravion, "I was in Rohan not a week gone by... ...and he is no longer in Edoras, as I said. As I also said, he is headed north. No one knew where he was bound." So let's say the Rohan team had a week's head start. Maybe a little more. I make it 300 miles from Edoras to the stream of Nimrodel at the Lorien edge. Average Cavalry speed is 33 miles per day, but Mellon-Amroth is pushing hard, and although he can't match Shadowfax's speed (100 miles a day) he's faster than 33 mi/day. Let's call it 45 miles / day to Lorien, since he's guessing he'll find Nimrodel there and the horses can rest. (He'll be wrong.) So, he gets to the edge of Lorien in a week. In other words, our timescales are a bit skewed; the Ædegard group is a week ahead of Ravion's group. We can either leave it that way for a little bit, or do some hasty writing and "catch up" timewise. Timewise: As Ravion is leaving Minas Tirith, Erebemlin is meeting the Rohan group. So let's say Erebemlin meets them where the Nimrodel-stream meets the edge of Lorien. He gives Mellon-Amroth the news that "She departed for the Havens long ago." So instead of searching along the banks of the Nimrodel-- the banks of which, Erebemlin assures him are quite deserted-- They immediately skirt the south of the forest and follow the Anduin river; the horses are growing weary. So as Ædegard's group is heading south from Lorien along the Anduin on weary horses. Let's say they slow down to under 30 miles per day. Ravion's walkers are heading north-northwest, skirting the banks of the Anduin. Let's say they struggle along at twenty miles a day. Somewhere between Rauros, Sarn Gebir, and the East Emnet, I'm guessing they will either hear word of Ædegard's group, or, they will actually find their trail. So at that point, they turn and follow the trail. Do they each have horses by that time? What do you all think? Would some herdsman of Rohan take pity on them and offer them horses? (It's been nice working with Echo and the old Bay Mare, so... I confess I like the idea.) I'm going to rough all this out on a map, and put it up on my website. It'll be a large map showing from the Bay of Belfalas to Lorien, with the trails I just described roughed out on it. The Map Comments....? Grace and peace, --mark12_30 __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

04-08-2004, 01:22 PM	#5
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	On Long Distance Travel I've also been thinking whether we want to compress time. I lean away from this in general, but in a game where this much distance is covered I felt I should think it over. I came up with a few ideas. The obvious one is the old "And then after a whole month had gone by, our heroes found themselves at such and such a place." I grant that sometimes this approach is very neccessary, especially for games with a tight time-limit. I suppose it'll do in a pinch... However, as a writer, I've never cared for it. But another option would be, when we reach a section of the journey where we want to really make tracks, each writer could describe one full day of travel, as briefly or as detailed as you like. I confess I like this option a great deal. For an extreme moment, let's imagine the game from here on out as as Amroth's entire 2000-mile journey. Let's say he just started out. On horseback (good old Echo!) and guessing 25 miles/ day, that averages out to 80 days, or a little under three months real-time. Amroth is combing river banks and searching hard, whereas Ravion's group is just trying to find Mellon-Amroth. So even if they are on foot, they can take certain short-cuts. And they may not be on foot for very long depending on the generosity of Rohan's East Emnet. Gondor games have no set time limit. If we want to, we can cover the entire 2000-mile journey, both groups, in hour-by-hour detail, and take as long as we want to do it. That's up to us as a team. We can stretch this out for nine months if we want to. (Yes, once I was in a game from February to November. And I was the short-timer rookie in that game. Others were in it for much longer.) I say all this mostly because the idea of a game that went on forever was stressing me out! But if we shoot for a day per day (so to speak) we're still looking at about three months from now. If we want more detail, fine. But we've got other options than the "disappearing month syndrome." Thoughts and comments? Last edited by mark12_30; 04-08-2004 at 01:36 PM.