Evil things

[davem]

Of course, if we go with Meister Eckhart, then God is seen as constantly creating Past, Present & Future - so the past is not something that 'was' & is 'set', but is being 'created' constantly - so God is a permanent creator of all things - even us, including our past. God is constantly creating me, as I was, as I am, as I will be. I am continually being created by God. & so is everything else. For Eckhart, God is only 'aware' of us, of anything, to the extent that it reflects His mind & will - so in a sense, He doesn't 'register' evil, as it is not of Him. He only 'creates' & sustains what is good. What this would mean for an individual would be that if the individual was to give themselves over wholly to evil, so that there was no 'good' att all in them, God would no longer be aware of them, cease to create them, & they would then cease to be.

To get back to the Legendarium, this would mean that if an individual was to align themselves completely with Melkor's theme, Eru would no longer 'hear' them (because effectively, we are all 'singing' one theme or the other by our very existence & the choices we make. So, with Sauron & Saruman, at their death, they disappear in smoke blown away on the Wind. They have committed themselves to 'singing' Melkor's theme, till in the end Eru no longer hears them, is no longer aware of them, & He is no longer aware that there is anyone there in need of being created - so they just 'cease'. It is not 'judgement, condemnation & damnation' it is simply that they have made their 'existence' invisible.

This would perhaps account for the way Arda is to be renewed at the end. Eru will command the Music to be re-sung, desclare the Music to all present, but the themes will all be ones that reflect his 'mind' & nature. He will no longer be aware of, or sustain any contrary themes, so Arda will be renewed. But new things, things no in the original Music will be included, because the will be in accord with the Music, & therefore in accord with the mind of Eru.

I see magic as 'natural' to Elves (&Valar & Maiar), but not to Men, so I would still say that men's 'subcreation' is not the same as the Elves' - Men sub create secondary worlds without it, Elves seem to depend on it. So we have too different kinds of subcreation, but, as you say, with the same motivation. But Elves subcreation can be for the Elves alone - or even for an individual Elf - ie, it can bew complete without the need for any co-creating mind. The Elves sub create Lorien for themselves, men may wander in, but it is not created for men. Galadriel's desire is for a realm where flowers & trees do not die', not to create a place where others will believe they don't. Men's (as Tolkien's) sub creation requires the co-creation of an audience. In other words, the difference between the two kinds of sub creation is the lack of a need for active participation of the viewer in creating the Elves' art. Their art simply is, whether there is anyone to witness it or not. Human subcreation (in its 'highest' form - the creation of a secondary world in the mind) requires participation from the reader/hearer to make it effective. So, the Elves merely require 'magic' - natural though that may be to them - men require other participating minds.

Its true that natural gems look like rocks, but the gemstone does exist in potential within the stone, it only has to be brought out & cut. A jet engine, does not exist in potential - the flight of a bird or the movement of a ship would not inspire the mental leap to a jet engine, or the explosive power of a volcano would not inspire the mental leap to a gun or to a nuclear bomb - not to those commited to actualising Eru's themes. They may exist in potential in Melkor's theme, but that would require a commitment to that theme, which the Elves never made - not even Feanor & his sons.

But now I look like contradicting myself - because these 'new' things I'm saying only men can create could have been present in potential in Melkor's theme. Yet, perhaps the answer is that Elves (&Valar & Maiar) are attempting to actualise the themes in their 'purest' forms, without excess variation & invention, while men can take what the themes contain, & are willing to experiment with them, & explore what is possible - after all, while the Noldor create the greatest gems, they do it out of a desire to bring greater beauty into the world - it has little 'practical' application. Morgoth seeks to destroy, to consume Arda, Sauron to control it. Men, on the other hand, are seeking to experiment, to change, to open new possibilities.

So, even if every potential possibility is contained in the contending themes, only men will have the freedom of thought to make use of those possibilities.

[HerenIstarion]

Well, if I were calling up to Eckhart, it was unconsciously so, for I've tried to lean on Tolkien for the most part . It may be counted as a compliment to yours truly, if my conclusions somehow parallel his. Thanks a lot

Magic re: point taken. It may well be the case. So, it may be summarised as:

Magic is natural to those who exhibit ability to it (the group to contain elves and [incarnate] maiar) [It is my personal opinion that such an innate ability should not be called amgic at all]. It is, as any innate ability is, one of the tools in realization of creatures' likeness to its Creator in things it is entitled to, among which is subcreative capacity. The ability to subcreation is inherent ot all children of Eru. Elves remodel the Past, with Preservation in view as the main ends of it. Men seek Change in their subcreative excersises (reasons to be given below).

Participation of other minds in human subcreation re: may well be the case.

Jet engines re: nastiness and sidekicks get traditional reward of competent rebuff. But, on the other hand, if we again lean on Tolkien, such a thing as a jet engine would have been clearly condemned as Morgoth's invention indeed. (cf steel dragons and machines in the siege of Gondolin in the first versions of the story and description of technocivilisation allegedly invented by goblins in later times as stated in The Hobbit, also Mythopoeia, or Philomythus to Misomythus)

Freedom re:

So, even if every potential possibility is contained in the contending themes, only men will have the freedom of thought to make use of those possibilities.

in which we come back to Atrabeth again, where those possibilities and freedom of thought in actualasing those are, by implication, stated to be the built-in image or pattern the men carry inside them of the Arda Remade:

'Is it, then, a vision of what was designed to be when Arda
was complete - of living things and even of the very lands and
seas of Arda made eternal and indestructible, for ever beautiful
and new - with which the fëar of Men compare what they see
here? Or is there somewhere else a world of which all things
which we see, all things that either Elves or Men know, are only
tokens or reminders?'

Sounds even a bit platonic, then . The most explicit hint of Heaven ever to be found in Tolkien, as far as I know.

Being textual evidence, it can not be gainsaid. So, I again stress upon novelty as in the eye of the beholder - new things men bring about being new this side of the turnpike. Hence human longing, inability to stay quiet at most blessed places, constant seek for something new, to be enjoyed briefly and than thrown away, for everything reminds, but nothing is the real thing. And which may well underlie all of human subcreation. And such a disharmony being the result of the Fall (for otherwise, the bringing of 'new' things would be conscious, with the clear purpose in mind, but for the Fall, of which (in ME) the Death is a release.

But well, I have to agree, this side of said turnpike of death inevitably looks new even when Men are not conscious what are they about at all. But it is intended novelty - intended by Eru with direct insertion of human theme into the great Music before time.

So, human ability of novelty is destined as well as elven ability of preservation. Both are stated as each races' respective function. When I'm designed to do new things, and new things I do are designed by the same to design me, with clear goal in mind (of bringing Arda Remade into being) are they new to Him who designed them? For they are certainly new to me, and my mates (and if this novelty you've tried to indicate, than we have nothing to argue about in this respect). But back to design and function - extending it more, I conclude that the only freedom I can exercise when talking about my functioning is either to do it or not (when I'm an incarnate fëa, that is, I can only function without so much leisure or so much burden as the choice is, when I am an ork).

Choice, choice is the only true freedom.

Freedom to shape my life beyong the fate of Arda is built-in and predestined - for if men were tied inside old one, how could they participate in building of the new one? But as such a function is not percieved by any man of ME when alive, as they are mainly concerned with doing s of Arda, and [such a function] is rumored to be the lore of few wise men among them, then, I assume, function of 'Arda Remade builder' unfolds itself after death. Hence death, logically, is seen as means of freedom to shape one's fate beyond that of Arda and its main expression for all we know

Cheers

[davem]

Quote: Elves remodel the Past, with Preservation in view as the main ends of it. Men seek Change in their subcreative excersises (reasons to be given below).

This is central:as Flieger says, lves are effectively 'facing' into the past, yearning for what has been lost - one of Feanor's appeals is to a memory of Cuivienen, about which were wide lands which a free people might inhabit. It is a pull they all feel back to what
was. I would interpret this as being down to their innate sense of the Music - the further back one goes, the closer one gets to the Ainullindale. They are being pushed 'forward' in time, away from this ideal 'place/state' by Men, & specifically by the changes they introduce, which the Elves feel are somhow 'alien' - ie not contained in the Music. So Men are moving forward, with time, into the future, while Elves are being 'pushed backwards' into the future, away from the only place they could truly feel at peace.

This leads increasingly to a 'mis-use' of magic, which, while it may be 'innate' was intended to be used for subcreation, not to halt time & 'embalm'. Their sub creations become increasingly 'fixed', & less truly (in a primary or secondary sense) alive . The sense one gets is that a 'perfect', in Elven eyes, subcreation would be a world which was frozen in a state of eternal 'perfection', unchanging, one which they would simply stand in awe of forever. But this is a denial of life - which includes change & mortality. Change beyond the world is an alien concept for Elves, simply because the remain within the world, so the world is all they have, & all their hopes are bound within the circles of the world. Men's perspective (conscious or unconscious) takes in this 'extra' dimension, that beyond the world there is 'more than memory'. There is a continuation of life, & of sub-creativity beyond the world.

Even the Elves most 'metaphysical ' speculation is limited to Arda - Men & Elves will live in harmony within Arda remade. Their minds are incapable of concieving an existence beyond the circles of the world. Beyond an existence within Arda Marred lies only the possibility of an existence within Arda Remade. Their minds, bound by the Music, can only concieve of eternal existence in an Arda of some kind. They can concieve of a world which is 'forever beautiful & new' (impossible, because nothing can be forever new, unlesss it is constantly changing, & that would require one 'beautiful thing' to be ceaselessly replaced by some new 'beautiful thing'. They cannot concieve of beauty in flux, in mutability, because the idea of a 'good' change to something new & unthought of is alien to them. The only 'change' they would consider 'good' would be a change that took them 'back'' to the way things were.

Men certainly can, & do, seek to bring into being things contained in Melkor's themes, because both themes contain 'potentials/possibilities'. But in a sense, they are not bound by the Music, so while an Elf would have to choose one theme or the other to actualise, men have the freedom to pick & choose, & would be judged by Eru not on which theme they align themselves to & attempt to make 'real' but rather on what they do with what they take from either theme, because Elves cannot introduce change into the world, so they have a choice only between 'good' & 'evil', whereas men can bring good out of evil, as can Eru.

Men's role in rebuilding Arda is played out both while in the world & beyond the circles of the world. Even if Eru knows everything Men will do before they do it, that knowledge is not necessarally contained within the Music. Eru must know things not contained in the original, or changed themes, if men can introduce change in Arda. So Elves & Valar do not know the whole mind of Eru, or the whole fate of the World - they do not know what happens to Men after death, so even to the Valar not everything is known, or can ever be known, about Arda - even if to Eru it already is.

Quote:Hence human longing, inability to stay quiet at most blessed places, constant seek for something new, to be enjoyed briefly and than thrown away, for everything reminds, but nothing is the real thing. And which may well underlie all of human subcreation. And such a disharmony being the result of the Fall (for otherwise, the bringing of 'new' things would be conscious,

Not necessarally. It could be down simply to the fact that Men were never 'told' what the 'ideal' was & are struggling to find out, making many abortive attempts in the process. Or it could be that Eru has only granted them a general idea of the kind of thing he wants, & is leaving the final form to them.

[HerenIstarion]

from "this leads to" down to "The only 'change' they would consider 'good' would be a change that took them 'back'' to the way things were"

All of that may be the case, of course, and it sounds highly plausible (to the extent that I myself was considering almost the same, if not in same terms). But, and but again, if we still stay with Tolkien and haven't passed on to general philosopy, it is to be remembered that the only explicit textual evidence of what and how is to be after the completion of the Arda Marred is given in the quote provided in my previous. So it is to be trusted that for ME as imagery world (and for ours too, maybe) that is the truth, and the Arda Remade will indeed contain things eternally new. Still more, Finrods wording does not imply that 'forever beautiful and new' means 'unchanged'. Implication is assumed by you (I believe), as influenced by whole bulk of your own preceeding argumentation (which you are to be commended upon, by the way, kind sir) Eternal and indestructible need not mean frozen, just not subject to time and enthropy. So, as you yourself in one of your previous were defending the point that change is possible even without, or outside time, I believe it can be assumed here too?

"New" may mean also a bit more than it seemingly does - that the healed creatures will be given harmony with their milieu, so each instant of their lives they will retain capacity of perception everything as 'new' enabling them to appreciate everything they are given, invoking wonder and gratitude mixed with joy and happiness where previously, 'thanks' to Morgoth and as a consequence of the Fall, there were longing and boredom

Elf would have to choose one theme or the other to actualise, men have the freedom to pick & choose, & would be judged by Eru not on which theme they align themselves to & attempt to make 'real' but rather on what they do with what they take from either theme, because Elves cannot introduce change into the world, so they have a choice only between 'good' & 'evil', whereas men can bring good out of evil, as can Eru.

Here we come back to points we've got over up there. Seemingly, I was inattentive back than, for either I don't quite follow you, or your argument is wrong (or looks so to me):

For all I know, only Valar and Maiar are actually bound by what was sung, and at that they actualise exactly what each of them was singing at the time. That is not binding to the uttermost limit, rather defining, for they are capable of repentance (Sauron almost repents) That's why I have brought forth statement of world being fitted into pattern which is Music.

At that, Men and Elves are direct insertions of Eru, Eruhini, his children, the whole mode of being of which (i.e. union of eternal fea with temporal hroa) seems to be symbolic, indication of future arrangement, when matter will cease to be temporal and be equally eternal, and seems to set the direction of they development. At that, they have distinct functions - elves of preservation and memory, men of working future order out. Where it makes obligatory for elves to follow one thread only and for men to be free and picky, I fail to see.

Least of all I would accept "men can bring good out of evil", for men doing evil are evil (i.e. means are not justified by the end for the doer, or, Hitler's murderer may have averted much sorrow, but that would not have made him holy, he would still have been murderer). It is Eru who brings good out of evil, and in unexpected way, usually. But the 'tool' i.e evil-doer whos deeds resulted in new good, is not considered responsible for the good, he is still to be condemned on behalf of his evil deed. At that inverted commas around words Good and Evil are unwarranted, for both concepts are not mere conventions, but 'real thing' - either comply with [built-in by Eru as part of fea] standard or not. Which is matter of choice. And brings us back down to mere choice (hum) in whatever action elf or man takes, and which therefore is uttermost expression of freedom. And if goodness is the same (as, agian backed up with direct quote by Aragorn up there) for both and compliance to it is defined by choice, than the modes of their existence are similar, with the difference of men not being bound inside temporal field of Arda, which difference is expressed through death.

It could be down simply to the fact that Men were never 'told' what the 'ideal' was

may I be forgiven If Iutter minutely triumphant "aha!" first? For here you indirectly pour water on the Fall theory's mill wheels. Why, do you reckon, they were not told about the thing which is the main motive of their existence (apart from explicit Christian idea to be free beings other than God to be loved by Him), but for the Fall?

leaving the final form to them

May be, may well be, regardless of the Fall

PS. Since we are neck deep in philosophy by now, should we ask moderator to split our discussion (for we two are only participants for a while now) from the main thread starting at post where it began or a bit earlier, say, and make of it separete 'philosophy' thread? For title "Evil Things" is quite misleading. Your opinion?

[davem]

Quote: So it is to be trusted that for ME as imagery world (and for ours too, maybe) that is the truth, and the Arda Remade will indeed contain things eternally new. Still more, Finrods wording does not imply that 'forever beautiful and new' means 'unchanged'. Implication is assumed by you (I believe), as influenced by whole bulk of your own preceeding argumentation (which you are to be commended upon, by the way, kind sir) Eternal and indestructible need not mean frozen, just not subject to time and enthropy. So, as you yourself in one of your previous were defending the point that change is possible even without, or outside time, I believe it can be assumed here too?

Well, it may be that the individual's perception of eternal things may be 'eternally new', but the things themselves, being eternal, cannot be in themselves eternally new - except in Eckhart's sense of being eternally created, rather than being created & constantly 'held in existence' - which strikes me is the difference between what Eru does (constantly creating all things) & what the Elves do by means of the Rings (creating an object once & then preserving or embalming it). From this I would draw the conclusion that the Elves' understanding of Eru's creativity is, while a genuine attempt at emulation (as all true sub creativity is), & is mistaken. They simply do not attempt to sub create eternal living things - which is what Eru does - they merely attempt to stop change. Change is certainly possible - if we accept the sequencial events, the process, clearly stated in Ainulindale - but do the Elves have a clear understanding of that? Galadriel tells Celebrimbor that she wishes to rule a land where Flowers & trees do not die; all Elvish sub creativity is an attempt to go back to an earlier, more perfect state. Change from that state is seen as 'wrong', so we cannot assume that in their conception of 'eternity' change plays any part. 'Frozen' may indeed be implied by Finrod - even if he wouldn't use that word.

Flieger quotes from an unpublished note of Tolkien's on Elvish Time:

'In Elvish sentiment the future was not one of hope or desire, but a decay & retrogression from former bliss & power. Though it inevitably lay ahead , as of one on a journey. 'looking forward' did not imply anticipation of delight. 'I look forward to seeing you again' did not mean or imply 'I wish to see you again, & since that is arranged/ & or very likely, I am pleased'. It meant simply 'I expect to see you again with the certainty of foresight (in some circumstances) or regard that as very probable - it might be with fear or dislike, 'foreboding '' Their position, as of later day sentiment, was one of exiles being driven forward (against their will) who were in mind or actual posture ever looking backward.
But in actual language time & place had distinct expressions.'

If Elves are bound (psychologically at least) by the Music, then they would only be able to concieve 'perfection' as being the 'perfect' manifestation of the Music in space/time/matter. They would not consider a change in the Music to constitute 'perfection'. So to this extent, while, if they were exposed to the new form of the Music manifest in Arda re-made, they might find it more beautiful, while in Arda Marred, knowing & able to relate only to the original Music, their concept of what constituted Arda re made would be based on their understanding of what the original Music would have brought into being. A new Music, changed in any way from the original, would not appeal. They could not concieve it, they would only know it would be 'different'. Of course, as Finrod says, they hold to estel & believe that Eru will cause Arda re made to be the ultimate state of perfection, but they cannot concieve it. Hence, their attempts at giving it some imaginative 'form' are limited, & are merely subtle variations on what they can concieve. An Arda re made which differed radically from the Arda they feel should have been produced from the original Music would seem to them strange & alien.

For Elves, the ideal of Arda re made would seem to be -everything remaining the same, but their perception of it being constantly renewed. For Men I don't think that would suffice. They would require genuinely new things to be possible, genuiine change & the possibility of new sub creation. So Elves would seek newness of perception, Men newness of that percieved.

Quote: 'only Valar and Maiar are actually bound by what was sung, and at that they actualise exactly what each of them was singing at the time.'

Not necesserally; they were capable of hearing some of the Music as a whole, & they sang in unison, so some at least had a sense of the wholeness of the Music.

Quote: 'Least of all I would accept "men can bring good out of evil", for men doing evil are evil (i.e. means are not justified by the end for the doer, or, Hitler's murderer may have averted much sorrow, but that would not have made him holy, he would still have been murderer). It is Eru who brings good out of evil, and in unexpected way, usually. But the 'tool' i.e evil-doer whos deeds resulted in new good, is not considered responsible for the good, he is still to be condemned on behalf of his evil deed.'

This is my fault for not being clear. What I meant was, there are things within Melkor's theme, which he inroduced for his own purposes - domination & destruction, of which we could include the potential for the production of jet engines , explosives, chemicals, etc. If Elves or Maiar were to choose to manifest Melkor's theme, go over to his side, they would not only be choosing to actualise his 'prototypes', build the things he has 'drawn up the blueprints for', they would also be choosing to suppport his desires & bring about his goals - because they cannot think beyond the themes, & have to choose one or the other. Men can take something which Melkor intended for domination & destruction - say a jet engine, & choose whether they will build a warplane or a cargo plane, or a rescue aircraft. Melkor's intent in producing the 'design' would have been to build the warplane, if Elves or Maiar had chosen to build a plane it would inevitably have been a warplane, because they can only choose to manifest his theme or not. But Men can take the idea of the plane & choose to turn it to either good or evil.

Quote: Why, do you reckon, they were not told about the thing which is the main motive of their existence (apart from explicit Christian idea to be free beings other than God to be loved by Him), but for the Fall?

Here we are speculating on the mind & motives of Illuvatar - which is perfectly valid if we view Illuvatar as a character Tolkien has invented - we may question, criticise, do a character analysis (or assasination ) if we choose. But if we see Illuvatar as in any way synonymous (even if only in Tolkien's mind) with God, then we simply can't enter into such speculation, simply because the Mind of God is too great ( as the writer of The Cloud of Unknowing has stated, God cannot be understood by the human intellect, only loved & worshipped). If one is Christian, one will accept the 'fall' (whether literally or metaphorically). If not, but is still a believer in God, then the reasons for Man's not knowing his role in the universe, & having to fumble to find it, could be manifold. In other words, Fall is not the only possible reason for not knowing why we're here - though one would have to assume that it is the one Tolkien himself favoured

Quote: PS. Since we are neck deep in philosophy by now, should we ask moderator to split our discussion (for we two are only participants for a while now) from the main thread starting at post where it began or a bit earlier, say, and make of it separete 'philosophy' thread? For title "Evil Things" is quite misleading. Your opinion?

Well, I know that Estelyn has been trying for a long time to get a serious thread on philosophy going, so I wouldn't have a problem - as long as you don't expect too much! I'm not a philosophy student, merely someone who has read a few books

[HerenIstarion]

Here we are speculating on the mind & motives of Illuvatar - which is perfectly valid if we view Illuvatar as a character Tolkien has invented - we may question, criticise, do a character analysis (or assasination ) if we choose. But if we see Illuvatar as in any way synonymous (even if only in Tolkien's mind) with God, then we simply can't enter into such speculation, simply because the Mind of God is too great

touché

On the other hand,

Well, it may be that the individual's perception of eternal things may be 'eternally new', but the things themselves, being eternal, cannot be in themselves eternally new - except in Eckhart's sense of being eternally created, rather than being created & constantly 'held in existence' - which strikes me is the difference between what Eru does (constantly creating all things) & what the Elves do by means of the Rings (creating an object once & then preserving or embalming it). From this I would draw the conclusion that the Elves' understanding of Eru's creativity is, while a genuine attempt at emulation (as all true sub creativity is), & is mistaken

On grounds given above (inability to understand Eru's mind), the conclusions you come to may be equally untrue as mine are, than. Though I agree that mine "aha" was a crooked argument, of course. Yet you, me, Eckhart and any other creature is equally unable to enter God's mind, therefore all of our reasoning may hit wild.

Yet, unless we are forced to abstain from any discussion whatsoever on that ground, and thus bringing us in discordance with God's will, somehow, for A) Having in mind the statement of being created in His likeness B) Having in mind that one of the mind's (pun warning - H-I always puns badly) main faculties is such of reasoning C) Abstaining from its employment is drawback on said likeness,

I draw a conclusion that we have to go on discussing such issues too

Well, I was not aware of the note you provide about elvish perception of Time. Thanks for the revelation, but I may argue that perception of time is not equal to perception of the Music, if we talk about ability to actualize given theme only in elven case. Therefore

A new Music, changed in any way from the original, would not appeal.

is speculation. It may be applicable to Valar and Maiar, or may be not, but with elves and men both being new theme in the Music, it strikes as discrepancy. Why should elves be so oppressed and depraved of ability to receive Eru's gifts? For anything coming from Eru is stated textually to be believed by Elves to be for the good of his Children (Estel), and elves are His Children. In case change comes from Eru, it is for their good and should not be rejected. And the answer is backed up textually too – because of Morgoth – who, tainting matter of Arda, made constant union of elven fëar and hroar even inside temporal boundaries of Arda Marred inharmonious and even impossible. And since the power goes both ways, and as fëa has its influence on hroa, so the latter does influence the former, the effect is such a dread of the future (and in case of Men Morgoth causes dread of death). It may be even speculated that Elves dread the future because their bodies fade (what with parting of fea and hroa regarded unnatural and undesirable). Barring of which process is the reason for such a preservation and freezing of time as done in places of elven rings (T.A), and Valinor in later times. (cf 'we must leave ME for Valinor or else we fade'). But there is no evidence that once harm done by Morgoth is healed (Arda Remade), elves must nevertheless dread the change.

Indeed, the change is not their main function (such being the remembrance), but dread they exhibit is not to be there in Arda Remade. Therefore, the change in the Music if produced by Eru should appeal.

Of course, as Finrod says, they hold to estel & believe that Eru will cause Arda re made to be the ultimate state of perfection, but they cannot concieve it

Than nobody can, for the same reason of Eru's minds inscrutability. Even Men, who, as I have a feeling we are agreed upon, act unconsciously. Besides, Estel consists not in the belief of perfection of final product of Eru's, but in the belief of His love for his Children and any deed of His being for their ultimate good.

For Elves, the ideal of Arda re made would seem to be -everything remaining the same, but their perception of it being constantly renewed. For Men I don't think that would suffice. They would require genuinely new things to be possible, genuiine change & the possibility of new sub creation. So Elves would seek newness of perception, Men newness of that percieved.

In case of the perception, how would one tell whether the thing perceived is the old thing perceived as new but nevertheless unchanged, or thing indeed changed and new and therefore so perceived?

If Elves or Maiar were to choose to manifest Melkor's theme, go over to his side, they would not only be choosing to actualise his 'prototypes', build the things he has 'drawn up the blueprints for', they would also be choosing to suppport his desires & bring about his goals - because they cannot think beyond the themes, & have to choose one or the other. Men can take something which Melkor intended for domination & destruction - say a jet engine, & choose whether they will build a warplane or a cargo plane, or a rescue aircraft. Melkor's intent in producing the 'design' would have been to build the warplane, if Elves or Maiar had chosen to build a plane it would inevitably have been a warplane, because they can only choose to manifest his theme or not. But Men can take the idea of the plane & choose to turn it to either good or evil.

Well then, if I understood correctly, you state that:

A) Valar and Elves know some themes to be good and some to be bad. Their freedom is expressed in choosing bad or good theme, and than act upon it. Whatever they do once they choose the theme, is defined to be good or bad according to the theme chosen.
B) Men may choose any theme of the Music (good or bad uniformly) and than act upon them in a good or bad way. So their freedom is of the other kind whatsoever.

Now my argument is that: Should groups and categories be introduced, it is incorrect to place Valar and Elves in one group and Men in another. It would be rather more logical to make groups as follows – group 1 Valar and group 2 Elves and Men, on the ground of difference of status. What is the case for Valar in choosing the themes may be speculated upon (I hold it is the same way as with elves and men, keystone being possible repentance of Sauron), but possibilities there for elves and men are discussed in following entries:

A) Good and Evil are stated to be the same for everybody. If we come to define what Evil is, I presume we will agree that uttermost end of it is Pride – i.e. replacement of priorities – putting forward of created self to take place of its Creator. Cruelty, domination and destruction are consequences. Any material object used for evil ends is ultimately but still merely medium for pride. Medium of the thing can not be at the same time the thing contained, so warplane can not be pride [=evil] in itself. I.e. warplane or any material object probably could not have been sung of in the Music, and if it nevertheless was, the dominant in the theme of warplane (sword, torture chamber, bomb etc) should have been pride.

B) Good and Evil are stated to be the same for everybody, again. So, any elf or man becoming proud in an evil way, (there are good ways to be proud, but that's another issue) are 1. Choosing Morgoth's theme 2. Performing act of choice. But Man, can not choose to be proud (cruel, dominant, destructive) and yet make any good end of it. Eru bringing good out of evil does so in mixing up results of actions of those who chose to be evil, but evil doers in themselves were planning quite other results (c.f. Melkor vs Ulmo and Manwe and snow and rain – freeze and heat were not invented with producing of beauty of snow and fertility of rain in mind)


C) With the B clause in mind, the way of acting goodly/badly for elves and men is the same and expressed by choice.


Further support for clause A:

He chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying,
Sang in a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and shifting shape,
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps

That is excerpt from Finrod's singing contest with Sauron. Even in lesser expression of thing [probably] similar to Great Music, the concepts are handled rather than material objects (though these figure too, but as mediums – broken trap=freedom etc)

Or, to be back on jet engines, jet engine per se is neither good nor bad. The knowledge on behalf of its handler (be it man or elf) that its usage is damaging, and decisions and actions hence with regards of such a knowledge, that is which makes jet engine probable medium for evil.


PS I have asked Estelyn to separate the discussion down from post #67. Let us await her decision

[davem]

Quote: Why should elves be so oppressed and depraved of ability to receive Eru's gifts? For anything coming from Eru is stated textually to be believed by Elves to be for the good of his Children (Estel), and elves are His Children.

What I meant was that from the perspective of Elves in Middle Earth, living out, or attempting to live out, the original Music, knowing (consciously or unconciously) only the original Music, a New Music would seem alien & unattractive, unless it was in vitually all ways a restatement of the original. Of course, once they actually hear the new Music, as it proceeds from Illuvatar, as Eruhini, they could not but be won over to it. If they can only choose to manifest one or other of the themes of the original Music, they could not relate to a totally new form of it, because they could not concieve of a totally different Music.,

Quote: Estel consists not in the belief of perfection of final product of Eru's, but in the belief of His love for his Children and any deed of His being for their ultimate good.

But surely, the result of any loving deed of Eru must be 'perfect'. Whatever the Elves hope for, or trust in, they would expect it to be perfect, even if they cannot concieve of the form that 'perfection would take.

Quote:In case of the perception, how would one tell whether the thing perceived is the old thing perceived as new but nevertheless unchanged, or thing indeed changed and new and therefore so perceived?

By difference in form of the thing percieved. My feeling is that the Elves would seek constantly renewed experience of what they already know, whereas men would seek experience of new things. This is how I understand the difference of human & Elvish psychology. Both races could tell whether they were simply looking at the same tree with 'renewed' vision, or looking with the 'same old' vision at a new tree.


Quote: Now my argument is that: Should groups and categories be introduced, it is incorrect to place Valar and Elves in one group and Men in another. It would be rather more logical to make groups as follows – group 1 Valar and group 2 Elves and Men, on the ground of difference of status.

You see, I would agree with you here, except it is clearly stated by Tolkien that mne are not bound by the Music, which is as fate to all things else. So, Elves Valar & Maiar are bound by the Music, & Men are not

Quote:.But Man, can not choose to be proud (cruel, dominant, destructive) and yet make any good end of it.

I would say that Turin does exactly that. He is driven by pride - probably more than any other character but Feanor. Both these characters' pride achieves good - the slaying of Glaurung & the creation of the Silmarils. Even the Noldor's rebellion & return to ME helps to hold Morgoth in check, In fact they probably did more in the fight against Morgoth than the Valar did, taking into account their strength.

Quote:Or, to be back on jet engines, jet engine per se is neither good nor bad. The knowledge on behalf of its handler (be it man or elf) that its usage is damaging, and decisions and actions hence with regards of such a knowledge, that is which makes jet engine probable medium for evil.

If we take the statement from Hobbit about Orcs being responsible for explosives & torture devices as being correct, then we can concieve of Morgoth's theme including the 'potential' for modern warfare, including jet fighters. So, Elves & valar could choose the jet fighter, or reject it, but they couldn't seperate the concept 'jet' from the concept 'fighter'. Men could, so they could build a jet aircraft which wasn't a fighter.