Unnumbered Tears - what if?

[symestreem]

Yet neither by wolf, nor by Balrog, nor by Dragon, would Morgoth have achieved his end, but for the treachery of Men.

How did the Doom of Mandos cause the treachery of the Eastlings? The 'hosts' that were not true were not those of the Eldar, but those of the Men.

[doug*platypus]

I think the treachery that occured could still be loosely considered as "kin unto kin". The faithful sons of Bór were distantly akin to the sons of Ulfang, because they were all Swarthy Men. In Chapter 20, The Silmarillion says that:

Great was the triumph of Morgoth, and his design was accomplished in a manner after his own heart; for Men took the lives of Men...

Anyone who joined with or came into contact with the exiled Noldor (Teleri, Edain and presumably also Swarthy Men) joined the ranks of the cursed. Thingol brought his own doom on him when he spoke of his desire for a Silmaril, and of the Edain it was said:

All these were caught in the net of the Doom of the Noldor...

I think that Nilpaurion Felagund is right; the treachery that took away all hope of victory in the Nirnaeth was a result of the Curse of Mandos.

[davem]

Let's look at this from the Noldor's point of view for a moment:

As for the 'Doom of Mandos' - do the Noldor really believe it? They saw the Valar brought to apparent ruin, in their own land, saw Morgoth kill the Trees under their noses. I wonder if they didn't have some sense that lots of things were possible - even if the Valar said they weren't. Perhaps we're dealing with a people who had faced what seemed the ultimate disaster, set off on their own on what appeared a suicide mission - taking back the Silmarils from Morgoth - & seemed, against all odds to be on the road to winning.

You can almost imagine them thinking: Maybe the Valar don't know everything. Isn't it worth the risk? And the Valar had left them (& the Sindar, men & dwarves, who had not offended) to their fate. Morgoth is a threat to their very existence - what were they supposed to do? Stand back & do nothing & let him wipe them out piecemeal? They either have to fight, hit him as hard as they can & attempt to defeat him, or wait till he destroys them. They can't go back. They have nowhere to run. We have the clash of the two contending themes of the Music being made mainifest - conflict in the world is inevitable because its a conflict which began before the world. This a battle between forces attepting to actualise the different themes - Morgoth's forces are continuing to 'sing' the themes he introduced in eternity. The Elves - for all their 'sin' are still attempting to 'sing' the theme Eru propounded to the Ainur by Eru before the 'Ea!' was spoken & Arda came into being.

So,(as Tolkien stated) the Valar were at fault in holding back & barricading Valinor. The themes will contend throughout history till the Great End. The Noldor have committed a terrible offence in the Kinslaying, but the Valar have shirked their obligation. They contended with Melkor in the Anulindale, but they have refused to continue that contention within the world. The Noldor should not have been deserted by the Valar, who behave like offended children instead of the Holy Ones given stewardship of Arda by Eru that they are. Why should they have to crawl back to the Valar & beg them to help. When they do try & get back to ask the Valar just refuse to listen. The Valar have ultimate responsibility for dealing with Morgoth, but are hiding behind the Pelori, being self righteous, while the Noldor, the Sindar, Men & Dwarves are shedding their blood & losing their lives, doing their job for them.

Of course, this is not the whole story - the Valar do intervene, they don't leave the people of Middle Earth to their fate, but from the perspective of the Noldor in ME it could easily seem that way. The Valar have good reason to be wary of direct confrontation with Morgoth, they don't know how devastating the consequences of all out war between them & Morgoth will be on Beleriand, or Middle Earth as a whole.

But war is inevitable, because the Music set out this eternal & temporal contention, so this battle is inevitable, & they would have had to fight it sooner or later, even if they knew defeat was unavoidable. Whatever the Noldor did, out of pride, fear loss, desire, anger, however much they can be said to have brought their fate on themselves, the Valar (again as Tolkien said) are not wholly in the right, because in the end dealing with Morgoth is their responsibility, not the Noldor's (or anyone else's), & they shouldn't have to be begged to do it.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I agree with your point about Nirnaeth being inevitable. But your point about the Valar being at fault...well...

...and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former them, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound [there being a battle of music between the Ainur and Melkor's theme before] more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery.

(The Silmarillion, Ainulindalë - emphasis mine)

The Ainur were also actualising their role in the conflict against Melkor - most of them sat it out, except, as examples, Melian and Ulmo. For a time, as the Eldar gained power and beauty in Arda, Morgoth's hatred will be poured out on them, and, for a while, they will be overpowered. The Valar not participating in that fight was pre-ordained by the Music, so any blame could be excused as them only doing what they could do, bound to the Music as they are.

[Firefoot]

Let's say it looked like they would win. Everyone proved faithful and the battle is looking good. I don't think Morgoth would at this point sit back and watch it happen. I could see two things happening:

A) He himself doesn't have anymore orcs/balrogs etc. left to fight, so he himself goes. I doubt if the Elves, Men, etc. could stand against the might of Morgoth himself. This I see as the less likely of the two.
B) The Elves, Men, etc. prove victorious. Morgoth admits defeat for that day, but waits and rebuilds his strength to an even mightier force than before and comes back out with his larger armies and utterly destroys the people. This one, I think is comparable to Sauron, matter of the Ring aside. He was defeated in the Last Alliance, but he waited and took form again, rebuilt his armies, and set out to destroy the world, and would have won had it not been for the Ring.

Either way, Morgoth's victory is inevitible, and the Elves' war on him impossible without the aid of the Valar.

If (B) were to be the one that occured, I think some of the Elves, like Fëanor's sons, would probably try to get the Silmarils back, but I think it would probably be hopeless. Morgoth is entirely too powerful for them to get them. They would have died in the attempt.

I agree the battle was inevitible and also necessary for them to have any hope of surviving. But it was hopeless. They never really had a chance against a foe so great.

[HerenIstarion]

Exclude clause A.

Morgoth (probably) would have been afraid to come out "for though his might was greatest of all things in this world, alone of the Valar he knew fear". And his duel with Fingolfin is stated to be the last skirmish Morgoth participated in in person. There have been some knocking on his doors and shouting of "come out" in times preceeding the battle discussed (Feanor upon landing almost there, and Fingolfin's march to the doors), but he did not bother himself to get out of his cosy armchair (or off hard and cruel throne) to make battle in person back than too: "Then the Elves smote upon the gates of Angband, and the challenge of their trumpets shook the towers of Thangorodrim; and Maedhros heard them amid his torment and cried aloud, but his voice was lost in the echoes of the stone"

[davem]

Nilpaurion,

I do wonder about the extent to which the Valar's inaction is due to them trying to 'actualise the Music' - which they are bound to do, IMO, & how much is down to shock, confusion & self doubt. They thought they were doing the right thing up to then, & suddenly it all collapses like a pack of cards.

At that point they suddenly cease to do anything effective against Melkor, as if they're afraid that any major action will blow up in their faces, so they wait until they feel they know what they should do - but lets face it, if it hadn't been for the Noldor in ME Morgoth would have had a free rein to do whatever he wanted. The Valar, in their confusion, & desire to see the Noldor humbled, desert Men, Dwarves & Sindarin Elves.

I agree with H-I as regards Morgoth - I recall an essay which describes him at the end 'cowering stupidly' in his lowest dungeon as the forces of the Valar (finally) assail Angband. But then, Morgoth isn;t some kind of Byronic 'anti-hero', going down in a blaze of glory. Tolkien wouldn't have created such a personification of evil, because he had seen real evil on the Somme, & knew that it's really cowardly, self obsessed & cruel. This is the difference between a writer like Pullman, who has lived a safe middle class existence & can play with the idea of evil being darkly attractive, & one like Tolkien who knew evil for what really was, & couldn't play around with it in that way.