Evil things

[HerenIstarion]

Dear davem, I'm as well enjoying this clash, like of which I haven't had for ages, so do not fear the consensus, we can well shift subject once more (which I'm inclined to do right away), as we have already lost titular 'evil things' of the thread someplace around page 2 , unless some board authority feels inclined in his/her turn to close this thread for being completely off topic.

On the other hand, that is one of the outcomes of the debate (and fine by me at that) - new topics arisen to be inflicted upon innocent and unfortunate bystanders in a shape of a protracted discussion. So, my kind sir, let us break some more toothpicks around new subject(s):

As to Fea & Hroa. The point is, the existence of the Fea is not dependent on the hroa, but the hroa is dependent on the fea

Fair enough. And true too. But, nevertheless, it does not mean that hroa is under the complete control of the fëa, even with elves (and in the case of the Maiar - Gandalf, for instance). And for humans that is not the case whatsoever. Ever pondered how much of one's 'harmony with the world' comes as a result of good digestion and a large dinner recently consumed? Besides, the whole novelty of the existence of the Children is stated (see my previous) in union of fea and hroa. The Divine Conception of Children was based on having two in harmony, so you can not have an elf or a human in a form of fëa only - it'd be either a ghost or an apparition of a kind. In later writings you are so unhappy with , it is stated that Men are supposed to lift up their material bodies into eternity of the spirit, as was already said.

Besides, hroa can well exist without fëa (or the kind of fëa we usually mean under the name thereof) - the case being animal originated orks, animals and plants. But that last remark takes root merely in my nastiness, for I understand you were talking about people of free will in the case, so do not pay heed to it

But those were minor points. Main clasp still to come:

Subcreation re:

As to subcreation - why do Elves not invent stories? They seem merely to reiterate the past, & attempt to re-create it

Several weak points in your argument, as far as I'm any judge (or why do I believe the ability of subcreation is expressed equally in all Children of Eru, even in those of adoption - i.e. dwarves):

1. Where is it stated that ability of sub-creation has to be expressed mainly as an art of literature? Music is better example, I believe. The main subcreative act - the Music of The Ainur - is not expressed in words but in melodies. It is truth of our world that in the beginning there was a word, but for ME in the beginning there was a note. Both Elves and Dwarves are known to create music. (and elven is more perfect than anything humans have hitherto shown ability of contriving.

2. For all we know (for what we have to ponder about is History of Middle Earth, and not history of its scribes), elves may be capable of literature as well (they certainly are good at poetry), and Galadriel may have been holding soirees for elven literati every second Friday, and Elrond may have been equivalent of elvish Nebula Prize holder for his stories about mysterious flying crystal bowls or something.

3. Clause 2 was pure speculation of course. But, if we listen to Professor himself on the subject, in his On Fairy Stories he states (unfortunately, I do not have the book along to provide you with the direct quote) that elves are better at fantasy than humans are, and fantasies created by elves are perfect at suspending disbelief, so the human observer inside one is unable to say whether is he/she in the primary world or in secondary one. Subcreation in its full for you to enjoy.

4. Besides all of the above, both Elves and Dwarves are quite capable in Architecture and Arts (and more so than humans but Numenoreans). It is too as good expression of sub-creative ability as any. It is such a good example, that existence of carved orkish knife of Grishnakh's on the fields of Rohan lead me to believe him to be one of the fëa-having orks as opposed to main bulk of pure parrots

So, if all Children of Eru are capable of subcreation, which I do believe is the case, such an ability can not be the proof of special human freedom

later writings re:

Yes, much is altered in Tolkien's later writings. The difficulties arisen from such a situtation are usually solved by yours truly on the following ground - the whole of the legendarium is presented as collection of legends and stories by different authors. There is no need for different authors to agree on every point they recount. Joan of Arc's story described by pro and contra oriented chroniclers may differ to the great extent. So, there is a place in my head both for flat earth, two threes theory and round earth within solar system as well. But I usually tend to lean harder on what is written later, true.