Evil things

[HerenIstarion]

I believe you mix up orks and dunlandings there

[The Saucepan Man]

Here is rather a good thread, which touches on the thorny question of whether it is possible for Orcs to find redemption:

Inherent Evil

[Nimikôi Angarauko]

Well, the point I trying to make was that though the basic enemy forces do have free willl they do not have the knowledge to use it. This idea of an uneducated force of warriors following their master only through fear applies to both orcs and dunlandings, well at least in my opinion. Once the person is seduced to the Evil side then they become slaves, only during the initial seduction does the evil side look appealling, and once they are under the control of evil they can not leave through fear of pain, and torture by their masters and their enemies.

I hoped that cleared up my opinions concerning Evil and Evil things, My apologies if my ideas are a bit vague.

P.S. thank you for the link Sauce a very good read 'twas.

[Nirvana II]

this is unbelievably obscure now

[HerenIstarion]

Well, the point I trying to make was that though the basic enemy forces do have free willl they do not have the knowledge to use it

It may be the case IRL, but not in ME, basically. Orks (with minute possible exceptions of lesser Maiar and later Half-Men) have no free will

This idea of an uneducated force of warriors following their master only through fear applies to both orcs and dunlandings, well at least in my opinion

Fortunately, it applies only to dunlandings. (otherwise the throughout history slaughter of orks by (in that case, so called) free people would have no excuse. What's the difference between elves and orks, if both kill each other? In case elves know orks are simpletons not seeing errors of their ways?)

Your opinion is held in high esteem, but is erroneous, to the best of my knowledge. See here

cheers

[davem]

Isn't Orkish free will down to whether they have their origins in Elves or Men - which Tolkien was unsure about at the end- as only men have true free will, according to Ainulindale. Only Men are not bound by the Music, which is fate to all other creatures within Arda.

It seems then, that the role of Valar, Maiar & Elves is to actualise the Music, not to change it. The Music with its contradictory themes is being played out in Arda, but Men can (with the agreement of Illuvatar - for none can change the Music in his despite) change the Music.

Orcs decended from Elves cannot change the Music, so the extent of their freedom of action would be limited. Orcs decended from Men would have perhaps too much free will for Morgoth or Sauron (themselves unable to change the Music) to be comfortable with them as servants.

Does that make sense?

[Nimikôi Angarauko]

I remember reading somewhere that orcs are a cross-breed between elves and men, I can't quite remember where though, but like almost all things Evil there is not much conclusive evidence supporting this. Although every one makes extremely good points concerning orcs there simply is not enough evidence this way or that, all my ideas are merely speculations, but in hopes of keeping this thread alive I will bring up something else that has been troubling me for an age. There are two instances, to my knowledge, where Dragons speak and both times they are depicted with an extremely seductive power in their voice was this true with all worms or just the higher ups?

[Sharkû]

It appears to me that the question of Free Will in regard to Orcs is usually a bit different than when talking about Quendi or Men, not because there would be a fundamental difference between the two issues, but because it seems convenient to define the term in question so that it fits the perceived nature of Orcs better.
Namely, the point of debate is whether Orcs, or all Orcs vs. some, had any free will at all, or were just puppets. This does necessitate for me to go there again, but it is of course apparent that the latter was never remotely considered for Quendi or Men.